Any interest in a 1983 Grenada Mission?

[Polak2]

p7p8,

please be not hard on Stewy1 that he is trying to continue what he likes to do. Modding is a hobby after all, but I hear totally your frustration about DW engine and other game mechanics being not fully flexible to accommodate all facets of modern combat simulations. This is unfortunately rather common with many other great simulations. Only after quite few years of gathering serious familiarity and experience with the game (like yourself!), sometimes this truth becomes sadly quite evident.

And yet this does not prevent other modders like LWAMI before, Reinforced Alert now and others the names escapes me right now from trying to get more out of this closed and sometimes pretty much-padlocked box for their own and other users joy and entertainment.

Having said this I consider DW rather much more mod friendly than not, because of the open Doctrines and Mission Editor.

All for good fun!

[p7p8]

It's not frustration because i really like DW editor and i made dozens of scenarios. I just observe Stewe1's "new mission announcements' since many years. And he always start his work in not correct order.
Before announcement he should make short research but he never did.
So mission where main role was air operation is not good choice for game where it is most unpredictable and buggy game aspect.

Its like announcing big "foxtrot campaign" with big plans about missions, goals, regions, collecting historical data etc. And after this "mind storm" he sudenly notice - Foxtrot is NOT controlable.

Last time this unbreakable barrier was:

only air platforms can be resupplied in the mission editor.

It was reason to leave current "another big project"

And i always ask him for making "not-epic" scenario and he always make "more-epic" scenarios. Result - no single scenario for years.

[Polak2]

We do not want to start an argument or worse shooting forum exchange. Do we? Instead, I would rather focus on more positive and informative subjects like what are DW strongest points as a simulation engine but also what are its limits and how to best to avoid trappings while mission designing?

What naval operations are best portrayed by the engine and what not so good? Is this all a result of lack of a proper Doctrine file or it is because certain things are not programmed into NavalSimEngine which as I see it is the program core of the game.

It is pretty fascinating to see how RA managed to introduce more and more new Doctrine files (from around 50 original to I believe 250 now). It is obvious that must be knowing about other things like memory addresses and such.

To me, the real beauty of this particular simulation is its complexity and most interesting forum discussions are exploring the boundaries of it. I know it is subject for real knowledgeable folks but it is interesting ....

[p7p8]

But mission making is not modding. If you wanna make own mission you should learn basics first. Otherwise its like "i wanna make beauty poster in photoshop so please teach me what to do because i never launched photoshop"

I would rather focus on more positive and informative subjects like what are DW strongest points as a simulation engine but also what are its limits and how to best to avoid trappings while mission designing?

Its too complex to answer because some limitation you could bypass. Making good mission is not like throwing all positive aspects of simnavalengine into one cauldron. Its also not reading about historical operations. Its something between - mix ot these both things.

Experienced mission maker just knows what is possible to do and what will be very hard or impossible. For example ships in formation very often collide themself while turning. So you have to make more space between ships. It means: forget about very thight formations.
But unexperienced player will read somewhere about real operation where ships were in very tight formation and will put them on map very close to eachother.
Then without testing "formation stage" he will make dozens of familygram to increase immersion. After 2 weeks of working he will finally test mission and... surprise - all was pointless because ships cannot maintain formation for 15 minutes.

This is typical @Stewy1 problem with mission designing. Instead working from top-down he start from details which havent matter to mission. And after months of working he discover - main concept was wrong.

I recommend start mission making from simple missions - without dozens of familygrams and other not important details. Its easiest way to learn quite fast what works fine and where you should use some tricks. But we always read about "epic" missions inspired real evaent but without main concept.
Inspiration cannot fulfill main concept.

We love this game because of simulation level - not because of familygrams.
Escort, attaching, SOF are essential of this game - not historical background or what was NBA league score in 83'


I have good experience with mission designing and i can help to find solution of editor problems. But without posting specific problems i cannot give you recipt for good missions.


I have an idea. I can make simple mission (with recording video from this process) accordingly to features suggested by subsim members.
So if you are interested - just make simple sketch in different thread.
This will open discussion what is possible and what isn't. And maybe after this "guide" @Stewy1 will learn something about mission designing.

You should suggest:
- player platform
- mission goal
- enemy
- random/not random events
- what will make this mission concept original
- what will make this mission dificult or easy
- etc.

[Polak2]

That is very interesting take and replay. Thanks.

Sidenote: I know that you are very outspoken and your critiques are well founded in merits of the subject and your own experience. Just let us try to avoid open name-calling because that unfortunately sounds very harsh to the point of sounding even rude sometimes. I know you have a valid points and those familygrams perhaps have been little over the edge if not silly. Let us concentrate on the real merits and core of the subject how to make good mission using all DW can offer.

I will try to come with some ideas for the mission examples tomorrow.

PS. we should also establish separate thread and vacate Stewy1 Granada mission thread.

[Stewy1]

Thanks gents (and thanks Polak),

Yes, I've been working on ironing out a few bugs for the last couple of days now (plus getting plumbing fixed, seeing relatives, etc.).

The naval gunfire training mission is basically done - just trying to squash one 'ctd' bug.

Im sure this scenario never will be release in "final" version because Stewy havent main concept/vision of this mission. Asking surf or sub reveals this sad truth.

Cheers,
Stew

[p7p8]

Originally Posted by Stewy1

The naval gunfire training mission is basically done

Are you sure during real Urgent Fury USN made naval gunfire excercises?
Waht is point to make long training mission in real operation background?

Im sure gunfire training is NOT what everyone expected from:

planning a mission, where you leave San Juan, Puerto Rico, to operate alone in the Caribbean, in the week before the invasion (and leave Grenadian waters when the Independence and Guam Task Groups arrive

Would there be an interest in a longer mission like this,

You just another one proved my words - you announces "epic" scenario but you focus on not important details/events.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Polak2

That is very interesting take and replay. Thanks.

Sidenote: I know that you are very outspoken and your critiques are well founded in merits of the subject and your own experience. Just let us try to avoid open name-calling because that unfortunately sounds very harsh to the point of sounding even rude sometimes. I know you have a valid points and those familygrams perhaps have been little over the edge if not silly. Let us concentrate on the real merits and core of the subject how to make good mission using all DW can offer.

I will try to come with some ideas for the mission examples tomorrow.

PS. we should also establish separate thread and vacate Stewy1 Granada mission thread.

Wise words I hope all will adhere to.

Let us all try to get on with each other and if anyone has difficulty in doing so they always have the option to ignore.

[p7p8]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Let us all try to get on with each other and if anyone has difficulty in doing so they always have the option to ignore.

I suggest you to use this option if you have problem with understanding simplest things.