The future of europe?/Islam threads (Merged)

[XabbaRus]

Should of happened a long time ago. Too many times now I see threads on subsim descending into s*** like this.

Definately not like the subsim of yore. Too much nastiness and venom.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Should of happened a long time ago. Too many times now I see threads on subsim descending into s*** like this.

Definately not like the subsim of yore. Too much nastiness and venom.

HERE, HERE.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by STEED

HERE, HERE.

Steed,
You can't "HERE, HERE". You've only been here since six month's!
Back in the day's of yore the world wasn't like it is today. Back in the day's of yore Muslim/Western culture was not at a clashing as it is today.
If you don't like the thread just don't read it.

[STEED]

I excise my freedom of speech and add my comment to a thread debating is one thing slanging matches is another issue.

[CCIP]

Yes, but again, as I mentioned in my post earlier in this thread - this is a cyclic thing on Subsim in the last few months. Of course, I think it shows that it's a really contentious issue that's difficult to solve.

For the record, for a while I sided with those-who-shall-remain-unnamed who sounded the alarms over a real problem coming at the West. The alarms are well-due. But when the discussion moved to hints at solutions - because most people are afraid to state a serious solution, or are keen to post an unreasonable one - well, I found nothing I can agree with. The fact is that everyone's tugging the rope their own way, and quite shamelessly at that.

I'd feel sorry for the loss of an elightened Western culture, with its high humanistic ideals and an emphasis on reason. But I wouldn't feel sorry in the slightest for the loss of a Western culture that's rapidly descending back into the middle ages.

I think we're ultimately in disagreement as to what Western values are. No wonder there's no visible response in the society as yet.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I'd feel sorry for the loss of an elightened Western culture, with its high humanistic ideals and an emphasis on reason. But I wouldn't feel sorry in the slightest for the loss of a Western culture that's rapidly descending back into the middle ages.

I think we're ultimately in disagreement as to what Western values are. No wonder there's no visible response in the society as yet.

I'll again quote Jihad Watch's Hugh Fitzgerald, which is somewhat relevant to your post:

Why do you say this? Why do you think this, exhibiting such hopelessness? Where is it written that Infidels must continue to admit Muslims into their midst? Is there a divine right for anyone to move anywhere? On what theory do you base this suicidal notion?

There are all kinds of things to say about immigration to the Western world. But there should be no argument at all that no people and no polity is required to admit those who are, or claim to be, the adherents of a belief-system that clearly tells them, teaches them, inculcates in them the belief, that they must be hostile, even murderously so, to all who do not share their belief-system. This is not imaginary. This is not fantasy. This can easily be seen in the texts of Islam. It can be seen on every Muslim website. It can be seen in the testimony of every defector from Islam. It can be seen in the testimony of non-Muslims who have had to endure life in Muslim states. It can be seen by studying the history of Jihad-conquest and the subjugation of non-Muslims, from Spain to East Asia, over 1350 years. No right, no right at all, to continue to settle within the Lands of the Infidels. No right at all to continue to create an atmosphere far more unpleasant, expensive, and dangerous to Infidels, than it would be without a large-scale Muslim presence.

Don't accept things as you think they must be. We are not required, not obligated, to sacrifice our lands and happiness for some abstract principle, or out of fear of offending -- offending whom? People who divide the world uncompromisingly between Believer and Infidel? What if we offend them? Will they work to undo us, work for the day when Islam will everywhere dominate, even more relentlessly?

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by STEED

I excise my freedom of speech and add my comment to a thread debating is one thing slanging matches is another issue.

Ok

Just my 2 cents on the overall subject is that people mistake all this as islam vs. christianity while as a matter of fact(in my book anyway) it's a violent islamic culture vs. a democratic western culture. Unless democracy stops being so sweetly democratic our days are numbered.
In my veiw it's not religion, it's revolution, and when you want a revolution who do you recruit? The poor and those unhappy with their lot in life. They see themselves going nowhere in there own countries which have little to no industry and live hand to mouth. Why are muslims flocking to european countries? To improve their lot in life. What they find is low paying or no jobs at all and are treated as second class citizens. It isn't hard for these immams(?) to feed on this misery.
My view on these so called religious leaders is that a lot are nothing but wannabe mafia style boss's that use religion as a front to gain personal wealth and power. It's a huge scam and it's showing itself to be building in momentum.
I think islam is corrupt and their are not enough good muslim leaders to stem it or even survive it without getting murdered themselves in the name of God.
Well, make this my nickles worth.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

In my veiw it's not religion, it's revolution, and when you want a revolution who do you recruit? The poor and those unhappy with their lot in life. They see themselves going nowhere in there own countries which have little to no industry and live hand to mouth. Why are muslims flocking to european countries? To improve their lot in life. What they find is low paying or no jobs at all and are treated as second class citizens. It isn't hard for these immams(?) to feed on this misery.

Sounds like you enjoyed Syrianna.

When will this old myth stop?

It's Not the Economy, Stupid: What the West Needs to Know about the Rise of Radical Islam (article from 1995!)

God and Mammon: Does Poverty Cause Militant Islam?

Saudi Columnists: Urbanization and Development in Southern Saudi Arabia, Not Poverty, Led to September 11

Arab Columnists: Terrorists are Motivated by Cultural and Religious Factors, Not Poverty

Terrorists' backgrounds defy conventional wisdom

Does poverty breed jihad?

Poverty and terror: two questions for Alain Gresh

Researchers probe motives of suicide bombers

Affluent Genocide

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Sounds like you enjoyed Syrianna.

When will this old myth stop?

This myth will not stop. It is a myth propagated by socialists or left-leaning "philosophers". Bradclark1 does have a good point about revolution and poorer people likely to instigate it as they feel they have little or nothing to lose. But this just doesn't apply to the fanatacism of Islamic Fundamentalism. They're not driven by poverty.

Lefty's and socialist types push this nonsense to try and coerce us to change our ways. For example Patty Murray (D-Washington) stated a couple of years back that the reason many in the Arab world love and honor Osama is because he is building daycare centers. Almost implying that socialism would save the day. What a nut. Oh Patty, if we only changed our government into one that has universal healthcare, universal preschool, universal welfare, universal nose-wiping, etc. and provided the same to the Arab world, maybe they wouldn't hate us. Yeah...right.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Sounds like you enjoyed Syrianna.

When will this old myth stop?

It's Not the Economy, Stupid: What the West Needs to Know about the Rise of Radical Islam (article from 1995!)

God and Mammon: Does Poverty Cause Militant Islam?

Saudi Columnists: Urbanization and Development in Southern Saudi Arabia, Not Poverty, Led to September 11

Arab Columnists: Terrorists are Motivated by Cultural and Religious Factors, Not Poverty

Terrorists' backgrounds defy conventional wisdom

Does poverty breed jihad?

Poverty and terror: two questions for Alain Gresh

Researchers probe motives of suicide bombers

Affluent Genocide

Nope, never even watched, read Syrianna. Don't even know what it's about and I'm too lazy to find out.
What I said doesn't mean I believe that is the sole factor. I'm not that stupid, but I'm willing to bet that that is the reason for maybe 60% or more of radicals. I'm sure as heck not saying to set them up in socialist heaven. It wouldn't do any good anyway.
This is what I believe and I'm not trying to change anyones mind. I can't say what I believe the fix would be because then this thread would be locked. I believe in fighting fire with fire.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

In my veiw it's not religion, it's revolution, and when you want a revolution who do you recruit? The poor and those unhappy with their lot in life. They see themselves going nowhere in there own countries which have little to no industry and live hand to mouth. Why are muslims flocking to european countries? To improve their lot in life. What they find is low paying or no jobs at all and are treated as second class citizens. It isn't hard for these immams(?) to feed on this misery.
My view on these so called religious leaders is that a lot are nothing but wannabe mafia style boss's that use religion as a front to gain personal wealth and power. It's a huge scam and it's showing itself to be building in momentum.

Interesting theory, but perhaps I think it interesting mainly because it is a much more complete and well reasoned explanation than that offered by the "Islam=terrorism" club

Also since poverty, marginalization, stigmatization certainly do correlate with other forms of "deviant" (in the sense of being outside the norm) behaviour that Western society has gotten used to, I would be very surprised if there was absolutely no correlation between these factors and those individuals who commit terrorist acts. In fact, if we look outside the "West" to Israel there is indeed correlation in that the Palestinians seem to fit all 3 criteria. But still that is only correlation and not causation. :hmm:

Editted to add (before I get jumped on here by the usual suspects):

By "seems" I meant "seems to me". I've never been to Israel and my knowledge of the situation there is limited to the odd newspaper/magazine article that inevitably gets printed after the latest attack/retaliation.

Also, even if there is any correlation (to any degree) with any of the 3 factors thae it doesn't mean that factor(s) is any way a cause of the terrorism in that region. Nor does it equate to assigning blame or taking any sides in that equation.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

Interesting theory, but perhaps I think it interesting mainly because it is a much more complete and well reasoned explanation than that offered by the "Islam=terrorism" club

From the footnotes of the Canadian National Post article Sykbird and I posted yesterday:

What follows are selected Koranic references to fighting and killing infidels.

- Baqara (2):190 - "And fight (qaatiloo) in the way of Allah those who fight you."

- Baqara (2):193 - "Fight them (qaatiloohum), till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah's"

- Baqara (2):244 - "So fight (qaatiloo) in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing."

- Nisaa' (4):76 - "Those who are believers fight (yuqaatiloona) in the way of Allah, and the unbelievers fight in the idols' way. So fight (qaatiloo) the friends of Satan; surely the guile of Satan is ever feeble."

- al-Anfaal (8):39 - "Fight them (qaatiloohum), till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah's entirely."

- al-Taubah (9):12 - "But if they break their oaths after their covenant and thrust at your religion, then fight (qaatiloo) the leaders of unbelief."

- al-Taubah (9):29 - "Fight (qaatiloo) those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and his messenger have forbidden -- such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled."

- al-Taubah (9):123 - "O believers, fight (qaatiloo) the unbelievers (kuffaar) who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness (ghilza)."

- Baqara (2):191 - "And slay them (aqtuloohum) wherever you come upon them"

- Baqara (2):191 - "But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there; then if they fight you, slay them (aqtuloohum) -- such is the recompense of unbelievers."

- Nisaa' (4):89 - "then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them (aqtuloohum) wherever you find them"

- Nisaa' (4):91 - "If they withdraw not from you, and offer you peace, and restrain their hands, take them, and slay them (aqtuloohum) wherever you come on them; against them we have given you a clear authority."

- al-Taubah (9):5 - "Then when the sacred months are drawn away, slay (aqtuloo) the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush."

- Nisaa' (4):74 - "So let them fight (yuqaatil) in the way of Allah who sell the present life for the world to come; and whosoever fights (yuqaatil) in the way of Allah and is slain, or conquers, we shall bring him a mighty wage."

- Muhammad (47):4 - "When you meet the unbelievers, smite (darba) their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads."

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.


And this doesn't even touch all the other Islamic writings advocating the conquest of the infidel world, dar al-hab.