[REL] Barrack ship - Troop transport Wilhelm Gustloff - Robert Ley

[gap]

Originally Posted by VonDos

Hi Gap!
Got it, thanks!
At moment i'm working on some projects, btw this material is interesting for me (i love Cap Arcona's design, despite her sad end).
Maybe in future...


Best regards,
Vondos

No problem mate, seeing your interest for ocean liners and big to medium-size passenger ships, I thought I would share this information with you, but what you do with this information - and your project priorities - is none of my business

The list of ships that could be added or improved in SHIII is obviously very large. I pointed Cap Arcona and the Monte-class cruise ships to you not because I feel that they are more important than other vessels that at this moment you might be working on, but because I thought they were on topic with the Wilhelm Gustloff that you have recently released, and because they have already been modelled and released publicly. The models published on 3DWarehouse might not be 100% accurate, and indeed can't be imported directly in game, but together with the original drawings they might be a a good template for you or any other SH modder to figure out shapes and proportions of the real thing and to create his own SH model.

Talking about ship designs, I think Cap Arcona's layout is in line with many interwar ocean liners, slender and graceful if you compare them to some modern-day "monsters" that imho can be enumerated as some of the ugliest human artifacts ever made lol

 

Though appreciably smaller, the Monte cruisers don't look too dissimilar from Cap Arcona in their hull design, and if I was to choose between adding them or the Cap Arcona to the game, I would probably give them the priority simply because they were a class.

[VonDos]

Originally Posted by gap

Talking about ship designs, I think Cap Arcona's layout is in line with many interwar ocean liners, slender and graceful if you compare them to some modern-day "monsters" that imho can be enumerated as some of the ugliest human artifacts ever made lol

 

You're so right. Those huge things can be full of amenity and amousement options, but they still look like condos more than ships:

 

Best regards,
Vd

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by GAP

In May 1945 the ship was requisitioned again as a prison ship; she was heavily laden with about 5,000 prisoners from Nazi concentration camps, when RAF bombers sank her and her accompanying vessels, Deutschland and Thielbek anchored in the Bay of Lübeck. In the incident more than 7,000 people lost their lives. This was one of the biggest single-incident maritime losses of life in the Second World War, the largest being the sinking of the aforementioned German evacuation liner Wilhelm Gustloff, with 9,400 victims estimated.

YIPES! THE GORY DETAILS:

On 3 May 1945, three days after Hitler's suicide and only one day before the unconditional surrender of the German troops in northwestern Germany at Lüneburg Heath to Field Marshal Montgomery, Cap Arcona, Thielbek, and the passenger liner Deutschland were attacked as part of general strikes on shipping in the Baltic Sea by Royal Air Force (RAF) Hawker Typhoons of 83 Group of the 2nd Tactical Air Force. Through Ultra Intelligence, the Western Allies had become aware that most of the SS leadership and former concentration camp commandants had gathered with Heinrich Himmler in Flensburg, hoping to contrive an escape to Norway. The western allies had intercepted orders from the rump Dönitz government, also at Flensburg, that the SS leadership were to be facilitated in escaping Allied capture - or otherwise issued with false naval uniforms to conceal their identities- as Dönitz sought, while surrendering, to maintain the fiction that his administration had been free from involvement in the camps, or in Hitler's policies of genocide.
The aircraft were from No. 184 Squadron, No. 193 Squadron, No. 263 Squadron, No. 197 Squadron RAF, and No. 198 Squadron. Besides four 20 mm cannon, these Hawker Typhoon Mark 1B fighter-bombers carried either eight HE High Explosive"60 lb" RP-3 unguided rockets or two 500 lb (230 kg) bombs.
None of the prison flotilla were Red Cross marked (although the Deutschland had previously been intended as a hospital ship, and retained one white painted funnel with a red cross), and all prisoners were concealed below deck, so the pilots in the attacking force were unaware that they were laden with concentration camp survivors. Although Swedish and Swiss Red Cross officials had informed British intelligence on 2 May 1945 of the presence of large numbers of prisoners on ships at anchor in Lübeck Bay, this vital information failed to be passed on. The RAF commanders ordering the strike believed that a flotilla of ships was being prepared in Lübeck Bay, to accommodate leading SS personnel fleeing to German-controlled Norway in accordance with Dönitz's orders."The ships are gathering in the area of Lübeck and Kiel. At SHAEF it is believed that important Nazis who have escaped from Berlin to Flensburg are onboard, and are fleeing to Norway or neutral countries"..
Equipped with lifejackets from locked storage compartments, most of the SS guards managed to jump overboard from Cap Arcona. German trawlers sent to rescue Cap Arcona's crew members and guards managed to save 16 sailors, 400 SS men, and 20 SS women. Only 350 of the 5,000 former concentration camp inmates aboard Cap Arcona survived.. From 2,800 prisoners on board the Thielbek only 50 were saved; whereas all 2,000 prisoners on the Deutschland were safely taken off onto the Athen, before the Deutschland capsized
RAF Pilot Allan Wyse of No. 193 Squadron recalled, "We used our cannon fire at the chaps in the water... we shot them up with 20 mm cannons in the water. Horrible thing, but we were told to do it and we did it. That's war." THE DEFENSE OF ''FOLLOWING ORDERS'' WAS OVERTURNED AT NUREMBURG WAR CRIMES TRIALS.
Severely damaged and set on fire, Cap Arcona eventually capsized. Photos of the burning ships, listed as Deutschland, Thielbek, and Cap Arcona, and of the emaciated survivors swimming in the very cold Baltic Sea, around 7 °C (44.6 °F), were taken on a reconnaissance mission over the Bay of Lübeck by F-6 Mustang (the photo-reconnaissance version of the P-51) of the USAAF's 161st Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron around 1700 hrs, shortly after the attack.
On 4 May 1945, a British reconnaissance plane took photos of the two wrecks, Thielbek and Cap Arcona, the Bay of Neustadt being shallow. The capsized hulk of Cap Arcona later drifted ashore, and the beached wreck was finally broken up in 1949. For weeks after the attack, bodies of victims washed ashore, where they were collected and buried in mass graves at Neustadt in Holstein, Scharbeutz and Timmendorfer Strand. Parts of skeletons washed ashore over the next 30 years, with the last find in 1971.
The prisoners aboard the ships were of at least 30 nationalities: American, Belarusian, Belgian, Canadian, Czechoslovakian, Danish, Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Luxembourger, Norwegian, Polish, Romanian, Russian, Serbian, Spanish, Swiss, Ukrainian, and possibly others .

. I GOTTA REAL PROBLEM WITH THIS CONSIDER THE EXECUTION OF Heinz-Wilhelm Eck AND 2 OTHER OFFICERS, FOR MACHINE GUNNING SUVIVIORS IN THE WATER WHILE IN COMMAND OF U-852

The sinking Peleus left a large debris field, amongst which were several survivors clinging to rafts and wreckage. This debris could betray the presence of U-852 to enemy aircraft and shipping patrolling the area. Eck decided to sink the wreckage with hand grenades and automatic weapons. The question of whether this "dispersal" order explicitly or implicitly encouraged the killing of the sailors in the water, or whether this was an unfortunate example of collateral damage was the subject of a post-war trial. During the trial, Eck acknowledged he realized that by sinking the rafts, he was denying the seamen a chance of survival.
Eck ordered his junior officers to fire into the wreckage in an effort to sink it. Accounts differ greatly as to the number of shots fired and the damage done. The two surviving Greek sailors reported the shooting went on for a long time, and that at least four of their compatriots were killed by it. The German crew's report stated, however, that they had fired several short machine gun bursts into the wreckage and were unable to see their targets in the dark. The men shooting were later proven to be the ship's engineering officer, Hans Lenz (who claimed he had done so under protest to spare an enlisted man from having to do it).https://uboat.net/men/commanders/232.html However, the historian Dwight R. Messimer from the U.S. Naval Institute came to the conclusion, that "regardless of whether or not Heinz Eck and the others were guilty of war crimes, poor judgment, or of just following orders, the outcome of the trial was Siegerjustiz (victor's justice)",

MAKES A CASE FOR REICHSMARSHALL GOERING'S COMPLAINT: "VICTOR'S JUSTICE"....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz-Wilhelm_Eck https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-nuremberg-trials-70-years-later

During his trial, Hermann Goering wrote in the margins of his indictment, “The victor will always be the judge and the vanquished the accused.” While acknowledging the horrific atrocities carried out by Goering and other Nazi officials, some historians have had similar qualms, even going so far as to call the trials “Victor’s Justice.”