The return of the Nazis and fascists

I think there is a misunderstanding in my intention here.
More than 100 years ago, it was exactly these developments as well as practices in nationalism and right-wing populism that had led to both world wars.
The analogy as well as causality is undeniable - it has always started ... and ended badly.

Also, I am neither elitist nor morally superior, I refer only to the history and the present developments in the Western Hemisphere.

One more note:
Russia is massively supporting the nationalists and right-wing populists in Europe with billions of euros.
The influence on the election of Trump by the Russians should now be considered proven.

[CDR DPH]

Originally Posted by Bleiente

I think there is a misunderstanding in my intention here.

I believe you have a very valid point. The quote, "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" seems rather appropriate.

With respect to the ongoing situation within the EU, the financial bailouts, brexit, immigration and the seeming unchecked expansion in the scope of control exercised by Brussels coupled with the amount of influence being exercised by Germany, I would hope "the world" would be smart enough to stand back and let any internal strife play itself out.

Two NATO countries lobbing smoke at each other should not automatically invoke Article 5. The subsequent involvement of a non-NATO country attempting to take strategic advantage of a situation might however, complicate matters.

Nonetheless, I perceive Germany to be the biggest part of this problem currently. There is no doubt that country has an inordinate amount of sway and in large part is contributing to the discontent throughout the EU while at the same time propping it up with money and political influence.

It might be time, if the EU wishes to pursue a different path, perhaps a less rapid movement towards totalitarianism, to ask Germany to take a 5 year time out. Thank them for their contributions, keep them feeling welcome within the union, but significantly curtail their day to day influence and control over the remaining countries and the the internal political processes.

People much smarter than me have rightly concluded that a standing EU army is a nonstarter. It seems that what Germany wants to do, is what the EU does these days. Perhaps relating to France as well but to a lesser degree.

So yes, I have no difficulty envisioning conflict between member nations if the present trends and course is not altered. I would hope the world could stay out of any such unfortunate turn of events, but you know people - especially people with perceived power and visions of grandeur dancing between their ears...

Over time I think we will see more countries decide to pack it in and extricate themselves from under the thumb of the EU and that may just act as a pressure relief valve preventing the alternative. I don't wish to see the union dissolve but I also cannot see a path to its long term salvation under the present leadership and direction.

The people need to take back control from their politicians and not just vote in the same sort of authoritarian personalities from the opposite end of the political spectrum. The use of humanitarian immigration on a scale unseen before, for the purposes of moral suasion, is going to have consequences for civil societies in every country in the EU for a long time to come. People have become complacent in doing what government tell them to do. Government has long since learned that the hearts and minds of the people follow the carrots and free cheese offered to placate large segments of populations. The politicians know what they are doing and believe the end justifies the means. It is the governed people who have become confused and impotent; No longer able to separate themselves from those who always seem take advantage of a population for their own agenda and aggrandizement.

An interesting time indeed to be in reinforced bunker sales these days...

[mapuc]

So in another way

The way people have been voting the last 40-50 years
and
The way our elected politicians have acted the last 40-50 years

May lead to what some of you have mentioned in this thread.

Markus

[CDR DPH]

Perhaps the slogan for democracy needs to be changed.

From: "For the people by the people."

To: "The people get what they deserve for being acquiescent sheep."

If you think I'm a sheep.
That's nice.

[CDR DPH]

I don't know you Bleiente so I can't say one way or the other. My comments are intended to be taken in a general sense. Please refrain from making "it" personal.

- there are lots of people who do not vote
- lots of people vote along party lines and not for those with new/innovative/the best ideas.
- lots of people can't find Brussels on a map
- lots of people are haters by nature
- lots of people fail to employ logic in their decision making
- the truth hurts so is avoided by many

Not everyone is a sheep/lamb but many are. Most millennials are. That being said, "the people" will be judged by what they do or do not do. Your politicians represent and speak for you. If everyone looks in the mirror and sees a person who has done everything they can to make their country better, to keep democracy responsive and accountable, then there is obviously something in the water contributing to a mass delusion. Is the EU exactly what everyone thought it would be, I don't think so.

There is work to be done but few seem intent on getting to work. More of the same is easier apparently.

[CDR DPH]

For me the middle ground is that place where sanity, logic and clearly defined results converge.

Not all immigrants are needed or even wanted. Some will assimilate and enjoy a life that makes society better for us all. Others, not so much. We should not be saying anyone whose house was bombed on the other side of the world is welcome to live on our streets. Logic dictates that not all of those who find themselves dispossessed are desirable.

We as a society have to stop telling everyone what to do all the time. We attempt to codify everything that happens in our daily lives. Then we attempt to prod others in other countries to do the same. We tend to focus on the results and lose sight of the path to get there. We are so politically correct these days that we cannot laugh at ourselves and it is now a mortal sin to laugh at anyone else.

We can't identify criminals by their ethnicity so that others of that group are not unfairly assumed to be criminals themselves. The fact that in some cases, the majority of criminals are in fact of a specific ethnicity and thus other members of that community are also probably criminals, is just too difficult for people to process so we just avoid stating the obvious and label anyone who does as a racist.

Speak badly of women and your a misogynist. Speak badly of immigrants who make our societies worse and you are a xenophobe. About the only segment of society that is not a distinct and protected class these days is the white male. That is clearly a different discussion.

The middle ground is where reason, sanity and sober reflection can exist, can be discussed, can be openly contemplated without resulting in cries from rabid fanatics denouncing anything and everything that is the least bit interpretive. The middle ground is where politicians consult and heed the advice they are given. Where a political agenda does not trump reason and logic just for the sake of obtaining an arbitrary or politically advantageous goal at the expense of in and in complete disregard of the electorate. The middle ground is devoid of fanaticism, radicalism and just about every other "ism". The middle ground is the recognition that people are individuals, are what comprises our notion of humanity and are capable of being good to one another. The middle ground is not the left or the right or even those who consider themselves centrist. The middle ground is where everything is possible and from that place comes rules, goals, associations that are reasonable, fair and just, favoring no one in particular but everyone in general.

[Buddahaid]

So where is the middle ground? Why do all these arguments just boil down to you're either with me, or against me? A little is always too much? You compromise at all now and you're either a Nazi or a snowflake and that's an old tired song that sadly keeps cycling into popularity to the deaths of millions of voices.