Da Vinci Code provokes protests ahead of premiere

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Conspiracy! There really are two Masons in Kafiristan trying to slowly take over the world. Conspiracy my ass...

that movie is one my favorites!


We're not gods, we're Englishmen!

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by CB..

the bible actually mentions (i seem to remember) that angels were tempted out of heaven to sleep with human females---what happened to their bloodline ? i think that's a more interesting story me self--

The bloodlines of such were wiped out in 40 days and nights of rain....Only one line survived.

Genesis 6
[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

It is almost funny reading the compairsions to Christianiaty and Islam....I think many people tend to "Lump" all Baptists,Catholics,Mormons,Protastants, into the category of Christian....The word Christian I thought meant a follower of Christ....In the Bible it speaks of no other religion or any religion for that matter....it speaks of Jew and Gentile.It speaks of the bloodlines of Abraham who is the father of faith

Genisis 17
[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee


[19] And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
[20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
[21] But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year


Muslims come from the seed of Ishmael and the Jews who were given the promise thru Isaac also screwed up by not listening to God and following His instructions so the Kingdom went out unto the Gentiles....until the "End of Times"...when the eyes of the Jews will be re-opened....the muslim is in the same boat as the Gentile as is the JEW....Christ did away with all JEW,Gentile,Muslim,Black,white,green,yellow and paid the price with his own blood and bought the human race for himself.

Christians true followers of Christs teachings know all these things must come to pass as the end of times draws near...it is nothing to fear like it has not been told about....the conflict at the moment is the Jew and the Muslim fighting over things that they have no control over really anyways...they're eyes are closed...they're spiritual eyes...

Galatians 4
[22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Those who will live, will live by faith.Faith in what Jesus did so there is no boasting of works.The scriptures are encrypted that those of the flesh will not understand but those who have the key will hear and understand.

Peace

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Iceman

The bloodlines of such were wiped out in 40 days and nights of rain....Only one line survived.

Genesis 6
[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Another classic early Christian mistranslation.

Original Hebrew interpretation:

1. And it came to pass when man commenced to multiply upon the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them.

2. That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose.

On this, Rashi, the most standardized commentary on the Torah, compiles the following existing explanations:

the sons of the nobles
Heb. בָּנֵי הָ�ֱלֹהִי� (bnei elohim), the sons of the princes (Targumim) and the judges (Medrash Gen. Rabbah 26:5). Another explanation: בָּנֵי הָ�ֱלֹהִי� (bnei elohim) are the princes who go as messengers of the Omnipresent. They too mingled with them (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer, ch. 22). Every �ֱלֹהִי� (elohim) in Scripture is an expression of authority, and the following proves it (Exod. 4:16):“And you shall be to him as a lord (לֵ�לֹהִי� - le'lohim)� ; (ibid. 7:1):“See, I have made you a lord (�ֶלֹהִי� - elohim).�

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

Or like christian fundamentalists who bomb abortion clinics?

Or like non-denominational eco-terrorists.

Where are Christians commanded to kill abortionists? Site the scriptures. What Church groups advocate this, sighting religious legal doctrine?

Now ask yourself what do Islamic texts, legal fatwahs and schools of scholarship say regarding blasphemers and those that insult Islam and/or its prophet?

These 2 things are not alike. Some day you might just catch on. Here's a refresher for you.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Or like non-denominational eco-terrorists.

I'm not sure what your point here is with the link to paid right- wing shill Michelle Malkin. That she doesn't like Al Gore and makes a living publishing diatribes against anything perceived as "left-wing"? Never would have guessed that.

Where are Christians commanded to kill abortionists?
Site the scriptures. What Church groups advocate this, sighting religious legal doctrine?

Not sure what your point is here. Are you denying christian extremists have ever blown up an abortion clinic? In any case I had my fill of the scriptures going to Catholic school and won't be debating any theology here with you or anyone else. You don't have to be a biblical scholar though to have noted such instances over the years; you simply have to had to have picked up a newspaper (this is also where most of us prefer to read about current events as it tends to be more up-to-date than the scriptures).

Now ask yourself what do Islamic texts, legal fatwahs and schools of scholarship say regarding blasphemers and those that insult Islam and/or its prophet?

These 2 things are not alike. Some day you might just catch on. Here's a refresher for you.

The only thing I see here is that you (and others here) happily trash Islam at the drop of a hat while giving christianity a free pass. Which is fine, but please spare me the history re-write as one doesn't need to be a theologist to keep abreast of current events.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Not a very good novel, imo. Read it, found it pretty typical. If it was different subject matter, I can't see how it could have gotten published.

The reviews of it weren't very kind either, which surprises me as its not often Tom Hanks puts out a dog. I haven't seen it or read the novel, but I just finished reading another one by him (Deception Point) that was pretty awful. The writing wasn't bad - okay dialogue, good pacing and narrative - but the main character kept having near-death encounters over, and over again (and escaping virtually unscathed). To give you a sample of what I mean (spoilers):

She gets shot by an ice bullet (do these even exist?) but her and 2 out of 3 of her companions still, despite being unarmed, escape the Special Forces asassination squad of 3 "trained killers";

however they do fall off the glacier - only to survive because the drop was only 10 feet;

but then the ice shelf they land on breaks off (assisted by the detonation of a flash-bang grenade lobbed into the crevice by one of the evil-doers) and the 3 plummet along with it into the arctic ocean several hundred feet below;

they survive the fall only to die of hypothermia;

only they don't because one of them had tapped an SOS onto the floating icepan which was heard by the sonar operator on a nuclear sub that just happened to be nearby;

then later that day they are attacked by the same hit-team and the main character is shot in the arm by the machine-gun turret of the helicopter gunship they are piloting, along with another who is shot in the leg and both end up in the heavily hammer-head shark infested water (they are off the coast of NJ now);

the main character happens to have been in an unpowered one-man submersible with a stuck hatch and its slowly sinking; her and the other characer survive (she is saved by the third character) who are all picked up by a Coast Guard helicopter that just happened to be in the area just as seemed certain our heroic threesome would perish in the water (again);

the 3-man hit squad, which has to be the most inept ever to wear a Special Forces uniform, are all killed during their attack by our previously cornered and unarmed heroic threesom.

The End (and no, I didn't make any of that up).

[Skybird]

Jesus' message does not command his followers to kill people that were not of bis opinion, or to make them submit and treat them discriminative. He - as he is described in the bible - also did not do that himself. Muhammad did, and the Quran holds plents of quotes where it is calling for killing done by Muslims against infidels, where as the killing is forbidden (self-defense against Islam is forbidden!?) for the infidel, and if they do it, it is so much more an evil act than if a Muslim does it, for whom it is an opportunity to gain praise and honour. Where Chrstian religion leaves it to God to decide on life and death, Islam decides on the basis of Muhammad's will and does the killing itself in the place of Allah.

I have no sympathy for fundamentalists in principle, but Christians fundamentalists are a group within modern christianity, wheres as Islam is a fumdamental relgion in itself. It compares to Chrsitinaity as if the Christian religion never moved beyond the old testament. But it did, and here we are, but they still lag behind over a thousand years and have prevented and killed any developement that could have led to new scriptures or reforming minds giving them something like Islam'S pendant of new testament or Jesus. Islam is the origin of it'S own standstill and theological stagnation. It must solve that itself, we cannot and should not rry to do it in it's place. Will cost us only our heads. Our ancestors had a bloody time to raise Chrstianity beyond the old testament'S content, and Islam mjst suffer that same painful birtzh, or it will become the doom of all mankind and civilisation - the great destroyer, but no constructor. I do not see it has the potential to acchieve that objective, unfortunately, and that makes Islam to a problem for all non-Muslim mankind.

I also do not feel christian fundamentalists on a crusade to make europe submit and delete my home culture and force me to become one of them, or penalize me if I do not join. I also do not see them rage through the streets like a horde of raby monkeys that often and on that scale as it is the case in Islam.

I find it idiotic to compare Muhammad to Jesus, or Islam to Chrsitianity on the basis of Jesus and the new testament. That's like comparing Jesus or Siddharta to Hitler or Stalin.

Problem is, scandium, Christians being violent are so in violation to Jesus explicit message. Comparable with regard to Buddhist. But Muslims being violent are not violating their relgion, but they follow explciit rules of their religion. It is ridiculous to compare Christianity to Islam on a theological level. Both are worlds apart.

As to the movie, they said in TV it has seen the most successful (financially) start there ever was after three days, don'T remember if it was meant on an international or national level, second only to one other film. Anyway, I always considered it to be possible that the biblic Jesus does not match the historical correct figure. I would not be surprised to learn that he liked women or maybe had a child, and I also would not be shocked. I do not believe in the miracles the bibles describes, for me they are metaphors. That Jesus maybe was a family man, and maybe someone else in his place was crucified, does not weaken the value of his words in the sermon on the mountain, and in so many other examples where he preached. In the end we all are just humans, in good and in worse, and some people's life is dominated by life and love, others by killing and aggression. That is true for you and for me, and for Jesus and Siddharta as well, and even for Muhammad. Some of us are just more wise and positive towards life than others.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

I'm not sure what your point here is with the link to paid right- wing shill Michelle Malkin.

LOL! Someone is paid and they become a shill. Oh, they're right-wing, so it's OK.

That she doesn't like Al Gore and makes a living publishing diatribes against anything perceived as "left-wing"? Never would have guessed that.

If you would like to point out her follies, go ahead, though I suggest another thread for it.

And my point was that numerous people exist with all sorts of beliefs but that doesn't mean they have established foundations backing them up.

Not sure what your point is here. Are you denying christian extremists have ever blown up an abortion clinic?

Nope.

In any case I had my fill of the scriptures going to Catholic school and won't be debating any theology here with you or anyone else. You don't have to be a biblical scholar though to have noted such instances over the years; you simply have to had to have picked up a newspaper (this is also where most of us prefer to read about current events as it tends to be more up-to-date than the scriptures).

Here's a quote from MSNBC:

• Acts of violence against abortion clinics and their employees have been carried out across the United States throughout the 1980s and 1990s.
  
  There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994 and one in 1993, according to statistics from the National Abortion Federation.
  
  The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has logged 167 attacks against abortion clinics over the past 15 years.
  
  In 1984, there were 18 bombings against abortion clinics. In 1993, there were 78 death threats aimed at clinic employees. And, in 1996, bombings, threats and harassment affected about one-third of U.S. abortion clinics.

What religious bodies unequivically sanction these acts of violence? How many people are involved?

The only thing I see here is that you (and others here) happily trash Islam at the drop of a hat while giving christianity a free pass. Which is fine, but please spare me the history re-write as one doesn't need to be a theologist to keep abreast of current events.

We may be able to reach a point of understanding if you'll let me in on what history is being rewritten by whom?

EDIT: And everything that Skybird said.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Jesus' message does not command his followers to kill people that were not of bis opinion, or to make them submit and treat them discriminative.

He also died 2,000 years ago which means he isn't around to admonish those who pervert his teachings or selectively ignore them. All of which happens and has happened under the christian banner. In fact there is probably no better cover for irrational behavior on a mass scale than religion, including christianity.

I also do not feel christian fundamentalists on a crusade to make europe submit and delete my home culture and force me to become one of them, or penalize me if I do not join. I also do not see them rage through the streets like a horde of raby monkeys that often and on that scale as it is the case in Islam.

No because being a more evolved religion, christianity exercises more subtle forms of control. The example I cited here has led to censorship, in many countries, of a movie that is pure fiction. More significant than this trite example would be the influence exerted by the christian abstinence lobby on the developed world, where their efforts have succeed in curbing safe-sex practices and condom distribution. This has profound effects on the Western hemisphere as well when sexually transmitted disease are further spread there and find their way here as people emmigrate and travel.

I find it idiotic to compare Muhammad to Jesus, or Islam to Chrsitianity on the basis of Jesus and the new testament.

This is the problem skybird: you equate a critique on christianity with a criticism of Jesus. They are not the same thing. There is, in fact, considerable room for interpretation of the bible and the various christian religions are very diverse from the different faiths interpreting it in different ways - not all of them even remotely "mainstream". And not everyone who goes to church or adopts the banner of christianity is a theologist. Far from it. Many know little more than their pastor's/priest's/minister's interpretation and he can have considerable power over his congregation irrespective of whether or not he "gets it right" or what the New Testament actually preaches. Jonestown is an example. Waco, Texas, is another.

Problem is, scandium, Christians being violent are so in violation to Jesus explicit message.

That is of little consolation to the victims. The fact is that, right or wrong, people who do bad things in the name of christianity are every bit as convinced of their righteousness as those who do bad things in the name of Islam.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

LOL! Someone is paid and they become a shill. Oh, they're right-wing, so it's OK.

They're a shill if they consistently promote the ideology of only one political spectrum while attacking/undermining the other and making a living doing it. That about describes Malkin to a tee. She's a "right-wing" shill because she consistently promotes right-wing ideology while attacking the left-wing. If she were doing the reverse she would be a left-wing shill, but then you wouldn't be posting her commentary here, would you?

And my point was that numerous people exist with all sorts of beliefs but that doesn't mean they have established foundations backing them up.

As you linked Malkin's commentary on Gore's global warming documentary to this point you really have me confused now. Are you suggesting global warming doesn't exist and comparing Gore's documentary on it to christianity? If so this seems kind of an absurd comparison to me. Whether you like Al Gore or not, global warming has been studied by actual scientists who seem to mostly agree that, if nothing else, the climate is changing and the globe is warming. The disagreement is mainly over the extent, the causes, and the consequences. That is quite a lot of different from a theological expert who is someone that knows everything to know about a single book and adept at rationalizing everything in the world that contradicts it. And who's evidence is impossible to observe or to measure.

[STEED]

Here are six remarks from the office staff here.


“What a load of hype over nothing the book was rubbish and the film is also rubbish�

“I fell asleep from boredom watching the film�

“I gave up on the book and threw it on my log fire�

“The film was weak�

“Droll and predictable�

“Slammer�

As for me I never read the book and I am not wasting money on seeing the film. And why it dose not interest me one bit as for the hype get a life.

Coming in 2007 The Simpson’s film now that’s worth seeing.

[Konovalov]

I'm happy to say that I have not purchased or read a single Dan Brown novel.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by scandium

They're a shill if they consistently promote the ideology of only one political spectrum while attacking/undermining the other and making a living doing it. That about describes Malkin to a tee. She's a "right-wing" shill because she consistently promotes right-wing ideology while attacking the left-wing. If she were doing the reverse she would be a left-wing shill, but then you wouldn't be posting her commentary here, would you?

I would place Malkin in the same group as Ann "Thrax" Coulter and Michael "Moronic" Moore. She is a verbal bomb thrower.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

They're a shill if they consistently promote the ideology of only one political spectrum while attacking/undermining the other and making a living doing it.

Why?

shill ( P ) Pronunciation Key (shl) Slang
n.
One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.

This belongs on a separate thread but I asked you before to show us her deceptions.

That about describes Malkin to a tee. She's a "right-wing" shill because she consistently promotes right-wing ideology while attacking the left-wing. If she were doing the reverse she would be a left-wing shill, but then you wouldn't be posting her commentary here, would you?

This does not define a shill. It defines an idealist or possibly an idealogue.

As you linked Malkin's commentary on Gore's global warming documentary to this point you really have me confused now. Are you suggesting global warming doesn't exist and comparing Gore's documentary on it to christianity?

Something strange going on here. My link is to an article titled Eco-Terrorism 101. Watch the movie.

And the point was that there are lots of people with personal beliefs that violence is a legitimate means to achieve an end. Some people base themselves on their own decisions of right and wrong, others on what is dictated to them.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by scandium

He also died 2,000 years ago which means he isn't around to admonish those who pervert his teachings or selectively ignore them. All of which happens and has happened under the christian banner. In fact there is probably no better cover for irrational behavior on a mass scale than religion, including christianity.

No because being a more evolved religion, christianity exercises more subtle forms of control. The example I cited here has led to censorship, in many countries, of a movie that is pure fiction. More significant than this trite example would be the influence exerted by the christian abstinence lobby on the developed world, where their efforts have succeed in curbing safe-sex practices and condom distribution. This has profound effects on the Western hemisphere as well when sexually transmitted disease are further spread there and find their way here as people emmigrate and travel.

This is the problem skybird: you equate a critique on christianity with a criticism of Jesus. They are not the same thing. There is, in fact, considerable room for interpretation of the bible and the various christian religions are very diverse from the different faiths interpreting it in different ways - not all of them even remotely "mainstream". And not everyone who goes to church or adopts the banner of christianity is a theologist. Far from it. Many know little more than their pastor's/priest's/minister's interpretation and he can have considerable power over his congregation irrespective of whether or not he "gets it right" or what the New Testament actually preaches. Jonestown is an example. Waco, Texas, is another.

That is of little consolation to the victims. The fact is that, right or wrong, people who do bad things in the name of christianity are every bit as convinced of their righteousness as those who do bad things in the name of Islam.

I don'T get what you want to point out.

Islamic violance against infidels is because it is acting in conformity with this ideology's rules and dermands. Muhammad practiced it with his own hands. He ordered it, Quran demands and praises it black on white. Several Hadiths call for it. Where Muhammad felt just offended, he took revenge and answered with massacre of males and boys and ensalving of women and girls. A Muslim being violent for these causes is in congruency with his religion's very basics.

Jesus did talk against violance. He did not raise his hands aginst others, he discouraged his followers to be aggressive against others. Nowhere in his teachings you find a writtendemand to kill and to overcome those that disagree with Jesus. Nowhere you find the written demand to wage war against infidels. Where jesus not only was offended, but even treated brutally and brought to dfeath - he did not call for revenge, but forgave his attackers. Where a Christian is acting violantly against someone of other faiths, or is oignoring the suffering of others caused by his own way of living, he is not in congruency with his religions basics, but he is explicitly violating it.

You cannot compare modern Christianity with Islam. Islam's clerics very much are in conformity with the teahcings of their religion, although sometimes being creative in finding reasons in the scriptures that are justifiying their doing (a good part of the Hadith may have been created that way, eventually). But the christian church IS NOT in conformity with the teachings of Jesus and the new testament where it is acting with war and powerpolitics like in the medieval (I exclude the crusades, becasue they would not have taken place if europe and the ancient Roman heritage of Christianity would not have been attacked by Islam first). Islam is right in it's critizism that the priests of the infidels have abandoned and distorted their own scriptures. In all my posts, for that rreeason I make clear distinctions between church and Christian religion in the understanding of new testament and Jesus, for that reason. I wrote that often enough. So far, so well. Problem is that Islam does not have to offer an altermnative that is of more value. The church in the past acted intolerant in violation of it'S religious basis. Islam still acts intolerant because that is it's religious basis. Chriszian countires have opened their societies for other cultures and religions, and now are overrun by Islam. Islam has progressed with a program of ethnical and cultural cleansing in it'S countries since it's very beginning, until today. The secret service of the Vatican, I referred to that repeatedly, said early in this decade, they have counted 100.000 slaughtered christians in Muslim nations per year, until today, victims of intentional and targetted murder and local progroms. It takes place in ALL Muslim nations, in some more, in some less. Now show me where this happens in Christians countries today! In Germany there is a weeks-long scandal every time there is a single assault against a single foreigner of dark skin or Muslim looking, and I can hardly imagine that in North America and all eiurope Muslims get slaughtered in progroms by the tens of thousands each year.

There has never been a valid fatwah against the slaughtering of infidels in Muslims countries, btw.

Really, I do not understand what you are aiming at. Are you trying to make Islamic danger appear less harmful by distracting attention towards the cruelty of other factions or times? Okay, interesting historical or political comment, then, but in no way it decreases the threat Islam poses to the rest of the world.