Realism mod (discussion)

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Well, that just poses a question how quiet it is compared to other torpedoes. Perhaps that would mean that Russian torpedoes are even more quiet.
You can't get around the issue of it using piston engine and water jet propulsion as opposed to electric motors.

Actually, i think he's referring to the later ADCAP as those got a lot of sound isolation improvements so the original MK48 maybe much louder but I can actually answer that without security clearance. My company used to work for Gould Inc that build the Mk48 and since I was already deep into modern military stuff back then. I did raise that question in the early 80s and the answer (no actual noise level was ever mentioned and the answer are in very general terms) I got is that it's slightly quieter or about the same as that Soviet torp in that era depending on which model but given that Soviet sonar equipment was generally inferior to their US equivalent at the time, they believe that we'll always pickup their torps before they pickup ours.

Another point that was raise is that in general, it's much easier to pickup launch transients before you pickup the torp's self noise so if you're able to masking that (firing from the other side of the layer), the chance of them getting a bearing to shoot back is much less.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by Wiz33

Actually, i think he's referring to the later ADCAP as those got a lot of sound isolation improvements so the original MK48 maybe much louder but I can actually answer that without security clearance. My company used to work for Gould Inc that build the Mk48 and since I was already deep into modern military stuff back then. I did raise that question in the early 80s and the answer (no actual noise level was ever mentioned and the answer are in very general terms) I got is that it's slightly quieter or about the same as that Soviet torp in that era depending on which model but given that Soviet sonar equipment was generally inferior to their US equivalent at the time, they believe that we'll always pickup their torps before they pickup ours.

Another point that was raise is that in general, it's much easier to pickup launch transients before you pickup the torp's self noise so if you're able to masking that (firing from the other side of the layer), the chance of them getting a bearing to shoot back is much less.

I wonder how a Russian working on their torpedoes would answer that question

BTW, don't think I'm contradicting you just for the sake of contradiction.
I'm just not very good at this whole "believing what people say" business

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

I wonder how a Russian working on their torpedoes would answer that question

BTW, don't think I'm contradicting you just for the sake of contradiction.
I'm just not very good at this whole "believing what people say" business

No offense taken at all, I would have treated it the same way, but all the varies sub sims back then tends to point to the same conclusion. But then again, they're all made by imperialist Americans.

Does this help?


[/URL]

[Ansgar Burkhard]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

I wonder how a Russian working on their torpedoes would answer that question

BTW, don't think I'm contradicting you just for the sake of contradiction.
I'm just not very good at this whole "believing what people say" business

And that is the healthy attitude to have. When reading American and Russian sources on the period from the US side it appears that the Russian subs were rubbish that would be picked apart instantly (without even considering different uses) whereas the Russian side refers to their subs as more equal although they had some disadvantages in terms of SONAR and acoustics. Looking at your noise levels for Russian and American submarines appears to tell the same story. And then we enter the Russian domain of wake tracking and detection which is still classified research to this day and non acoustic methods of detection which the Russians explored a lot more from what I could find.

[denis_469]

Originally Posted by Ansgar Burkhard

And that is the healthy attitude to have. When reading American and Russian sources on the period from the US side it appears that the Russian subs were rubbish that would be picked apart instantly (without even considering different uses) whereas the Russian side refers to their subs as more equal although they had some disadvantages in terms of SONAR and acoustics. Looking at your noise levels for Russian and American submarines appears to tell the same story. And then we enter the Russian domain of wake tracking and detection which is still classified research to this day and non acoustic methods of detection which the Russians explored a lot more from what I could find.

"In the first half of 1969, an experimental Soks "Snegir" was installed on it. In September-October of the same year, as part of the Pacific Fleet exercises, the boat was engaged in the search and tracking of the US Navy's nuclear submarines in the Philippine Sea and on approaches to Fr. Guam. K-14 managed to track one of the ships of the probable enemy with the help of this system for almost 40 days. Due to this success, Soks "Snegir" was developed and subsequently one of its modifications was installed on domestic third-generation nuclear submarines."
K-14 is submarine project 627A (NATO - November). It was US submarine "Benjamin Franklin" class. Our sub start tracking when US sub go from Guam and continue before US sub return to Guam base.

It is 1969 year. First non acoustic system. During this patrol "K-14" few times go to US sub for acoustic contact. "K-14" not need acoustic contact with US sub and know where US sub was.

[Ansgar Burkhard]

Originally Posted by denis_469

"In the first half of 1969, an experimental Soks "Snegir" was installed on it. In September-October of the same year, as part of the Pacific Fleet exercises, the boat was engaged in the search and tracking of the US Navy's nuclear submarines in the Philippine Sea and on approaches to Fr. Guam. K-14 managed to track one of the ships of the probable enemy with the help of this system for almost 40 days. Due to this success, Soks "Snegir" was developed and subsequently one of its modifications was installed on domestic third-generation nuclear submarines."
K-14 is submarine project 627A (NATO - November). It was US submarine "Benjamin Franklin" class. Our sub start tracking when US sub go from Guam and continue before US sub return to Guam base.

It is 1969 year. First non acoustic system. During this patrol "K-14" few times go to US sub for acoustic contact. "K-14" not need acoustic contact with US sub and know where US sub was.

Yes, as I suspected they picked up a trail bear a bas where it is expected for a submarine to try and leave. As I said, SOKS research, although largely dismissed in the West until very recently, is still classified by the Russian authorities. I would love to get my hands on it. If you have more info from Russian sources on wake detection please feel free to post it.

[denis_469]

Originally Posted by Ansgar Burkhard

Yes, as I suspected they picked up a trail bear a bas where it is expected for a submarine to try and leave. As I said, SOKS research, although largely dismissed in the West until very recently, is still classified by the Russian authorities. I would love to get my hands on it. If you have more info from Russian sources on wake detection please feel free to post it.

I think, that I write about in my site today. Understand, that not all, but can write about Snegir system.

Sorry, I have not enought data for write.

[MadMike]

I think the game needs some NATO warships, not to mention shipping (WP and NATO, and neutrals), in addition to biological contacts.

Would be interesting to see a naval plot from the time when the Warsaw Treaty Organization invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968, and of course mid 1984 (will see what I can dig up).

Yours, &c.

Mike