The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Skybird]

I think he did not mean a state decree forbidding Germans to travel to Turkey, but that germans simply should decide against Turkey, and stay in Germany or move to Spain or whereever else for their summer vacation . Which many obviously already do. Personally - I would also like to see a warning by the Außenministerium against travelling to Turkey, and the govenrment recommending private business to no longer raise additional business contacts and investements in Turkey, but to prepare to bail out there. Turkey is lost ground for the West - if it ever was different. The government should also rethink this stupid law that makes it mandatory for the government to intervene and help if people get into troubles with other countries authorities when there was a formal warning to travel to these countries. That Germany must accept that it could be blackmailed becasue some stupid tourist decided to act stupid in choosing a country as a destination where he better should not have gone, is a no go for me. Like insurrances do not necessarily need to pay if you intentionally caused the harm yourself. I did not like Turkey already 20 years ago. Why people voluntarily move to it for vacation, is beyond me.

The whole region I would not travel to anymore today. And practically all contracts I had back then I would not sign again today. I was so stupid back then. But the money was real, and much - or so it seemed to me at that age.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

How could one ban tourism?
People are free to go where they want.

Are you kidding? Governments issue travel bans all the time. It's been Illegal for U.S. citizens to travel to Cuba for 40 years. It's also illegal to travel to Syria, and Somalia. (hence the reason those Americans end up there via circuitous routes through Europe)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Are you kidding? Governments issue travel bans all the time. It's been Illegal for U.S. citizens to travel to Cuba for 40 years. It's also illegal to travel to Syria, and Somalia. (hence the reason those Americans end up there via circuitous routes through Europe)

I think we do not have such bans in Germany. But I may be proven wrong. I just don'T know that such bans have been ordered.

What has been tried was to release a law that could ban German politicians to travel to countries declared to be no-go zones. Also a law to collect ID papers of declared extremist people (terrorism tourists) was mulled or is in effect, I do not know right now. One wanted to interruted the supply with willing terror fighters for the IS that way.

However, these laws were not about banning the whole population in general to reach any foreign state as a travel destination.

Quite surprising that these laws exist in America and ban the whole population. Would expect this in more totalitarian regimes, not in the US. I also have no sympathy for such laws. I only want that the state is freed from any obligation to help put people if they manage to bring themselves into troubles when the foreign minstry has warned people to go somewhere.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

We can't do this. Unlike you, we live in a (more believable) democracy and try to uphold basic human rights instead of trying ways around them to play tsar.

How could one ban tourism?
People are free to go where they want.

You are not violating anything, you shouldn't really attack me or my country right from the bat. Let me expand on the two points you selected.

You cannot ban people from travelling to a country as this denies them the right to free movement, however you can make such travel harder. For example you can impose sanctions on the turkish financial and tourism sector companies (and sector wide sanctions are acceptable means in EU it appears), you can ban charter flights to Turkey (but retain regular flights), etc.

Regarding "refugees" - if they come via Turkey from 3rd party states and if we assume that Turkey is a safe country for them (it is not for the Kurds, nor do the Turkish Kurds come from 3rd party states hence why I singled them out) then they are not indeed legitimate refugees (that have to settle in the first safe country they get into) but rather migrants. It is not a human right to improve one's well being at another's expense without consent (and illegal migrants do not ask for consent in the form of say visas).

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Are you kidding?

Not in Germany. No one here can tell you not to travel to a certain country unless you show inclination to support an enemy (Muslim extremists get their passports revoked to prevent them from joining DEASH for example). If you're not on those "black lists" however you can go wherever you please and I'm not aware the German government would even have the legal power to ban all people from going to some country.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Are you kidding? Governments issue travel bans all the time. It's been Illegal for U.S. citizens to travel to Cuba for 40 years. It's also illegal to travel to Syria, and Somalia. (hence the reason those Americans end up there via circuitous routes through Europe)

It was never illegal to travel to Cuba you just couldn't spend your U.S. dollars there and its certainly not illegal to travel to the Middle East either as there are many U.S. citizens fighting for the legitimate goverment of Syria. The worst that will happen is if you find yourself in trouble dont expect any help in a place the goverment said not to go.

One time we stopped a U.S. sailboat that had left Havana. Had one person onboard, a college aged student, one those kind today we would call a snowflake. We were professioanl, did our job, inspected his boat and about to leave. He showed us his Che Guevara t-shirts and all these other things he had bought in Cuba. We asked how many U.S. dollars he spent. He told us about $150.00 US. we told him that was illegal and called ahead and had Customs waiting for him at the dock. Those were the days when we siezed just about everything so Im sure the kid probably lost his boat.

[Skybird]

You cannot ban people from travelling to a country as this denies them the right to free movement, however you can make such travel harder.

Just to be precise: the owner(s) of a given piece of land, the people living on that land or in that land and claiming it their home, having established cultures and communties there, have every natural right there can be to deny foreigners access to it, so destination countries of travellers can very well claim the right to deny foreigners entry.

Therefore there cannot be any general right for unlimited periods of asylum. It would be a violation of a most basic human right: the right to own private property that is yours, and nobody else's.

This also means there cannot be a general right of soembody to travel just everywhere where he wants. He can ask for permission to pass through. He even can ask for permission to stay. But he has no right at all to demand that the answer to his request must be positive. If those owning and living a land say No, he has to leave, or stay out in the first. No matter what.

There cannot be an unlimited right for free movement without violating other people's human rights that are prior-ranking.

The starting country of a traveller banning its citizens from travelling somewhere - that is not acceptable, and in principle already an imprisonment of own population. Its what the GDR has done, and what North Korea does today.

Same with states preventing citizens from giving up their citizenship and taking anoher state's nationality. Great Britain did not allow that for example until relatively late into last century, I read, I forgot the exact date when it was finally allowed, I think some time in the 70s. Until then, "Once a Briton - always a Briton" was the parole of a man's life. Or better: "Always a subject of the Queen."

Originally Posted by MaDef

Are you kidding? Governments issue travel bans all the time. It's been Illegal for U.S. citizens to travel to Cuba for 40 years. It's also illegal to travel to Syria, and Somalia. (hence the reason those Americans end up there via circuitous routes through Europe)

Well, I hope you're wrong, because how 'free' are Americans if they can't even go wherever they want. :P

Ah, the irony..

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

It was never illegal to travel to Cuba you just couldn't spend your U.S. dollars there and its certainly not illegal to travel to the Middle East either as there are many U.S. citizens fighting for the legitimate goverment of Syria. The worst that will happen is if you find yourself in trouble dont expect any help in a place the goverment said not to go.

One time we stopped a U.S. sailboat that had left Havana. Had one person onboard, a college aged student, one those kind today we would call a snowflake. We were professioanl, did our job, inspected his boat and about to leave. He showed us his Che Guevara t-shirts and all these other things he had bought in Cuba. We asked how many U.S. dollars he spent. He told us about $150.00 US. we told him that was illegal and called ahead and had Customs waiting for him at the dock. Those were the days when we siezed just about everything so Im sure the kid probably lost his boat.

Maybe i should have been more specific? While technically, travel isn't Illegal to Cuba, you need specific permission from the Treasury department to go.

Let's make it simple, as a passport holder I can travel to most countries, needing only The host country's permission (via treaty or Visa). In places like Cuba, I also need the U.S governments permission.

[Rockstar]

No doubt our governement tried to make travel to Cuba not worth your time. They even suceeded in scaring a lot of citizens into thinking they actually needed its permission. But the reality is nobody was or is currently required to get our governments permission to travel anywhere in this world. What I think Treasury was attempting back then was a way to enforce the sanctions meant to keep U.S. dollars out of Cuba.

You could travel Cuba, but you couldnt spend your U.S. dollars there, you couldnt even exchange it for Canadian dollars to spend there. And even if you didnt spend a dime there you would certainly have been read the riot act upon your return and inspected by Customs, Treasury, and Coast Guard and we would have found something to make your life as miserable as possible

Originally Posted by Rockstar

You could travel Cuba, but you couldnt spend your U.S. dollars there, you couldnt even exchange it for Canadian dollars to spend there. And even if you didnt spend a dime there you would certainly have been read the riot act upon your return and inspected by Customs, Treasury, and Coast Guard and we would have found something to make your life as miserable as possible

I shall save this part for the countless times subsim's resident patriot(s) lecture us europoors about freedom.
This is gold. Lol.

If I want to spend whatever currency in whatever part of the world Merkel would just shrug. Then again that's pretty much all she does anyways, Nevermind.

[Rockstar]

Meh it wasn't that bad. I mean take that one college kid whose sailboat we boarded. We knew full well he had been to Cuba and we couldn't really care less as there was no law against it.
It wasnt until he opened his big mouth and shot himself in the foot that we took note of his souvenirs. Even then all we did was call Customs. And to be honest I really dont know what happened to him and his boat once he made landfall. Could be Customs didnt bother to show up or he was just issued a citation, he could have had his souvenirs seized and if he excelled at being a wiseass I suppose he could have had his boat seized and been thrown in jail. Lol

[August]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

I shall save this part for the countless times subsim's resident patriot(s) lecture us europoors about freedom.
This is gold. Lol.

Fools gold, he's talking about the 1960's.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by August

Fools gold, he's talking about the 1960's.

according to the state department those requirements are still in place.

[August]

Originally Posted by MaDef

according to the state department those requirements are still in place.

Really? Because any such rule would be unenforceable. The seller is the only one who decides if they'll accept US dollars or not.

I know people who have been to Cuba. They couldn't fly directly there but no problem via Canada and no problems coming back through US customs either.