Manual Targeting in TMO different from stock game?

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

After reloading everything, I decided to give manual targeting w/o map updates. Now that's a challenge, mainly for getting into a proper lead position to shoot. Once in position and close enough, however, the Dick O'kane method is still superior, even if you don't have the exact angle info that you can get with map updating.

Like you I'm now experimenting around with the conventional tracking method mainly for use in determining target course/bearing to plot intercepts with/without end arounds.

Your WernerSobe links are a great help, but a tutorial on determining distant target course/bearing w/o map updates would be great. I haven't been able to find any such video example

That's because it just isn't possible. Our radar screens on real subs gave ship positions to within 15 yards, regardless of range, as accurate as our map updates. But our game radars are nowhere near adequate to giving us the same accuracy as the real submarines had. Our nav map suffers from error due to binning, so it is not perfectly accurate either.

Therefore map contacts off becomes like crossing eight lanes of traffic on I-75 in the middle of Atlanta with a blindfold on. It is possible, especially if you are blind and have developed the necessary abilities. But is it in any way realistic? No, like map contacts off, it is difficult and I suppose some points must be offered for the sheer difficulty of it, but it is not historical, accurate or any reflection of the actual situation of a radar equipped submarine in the war.

It is a major travesty that the settings are called "realism" settings. They are difficulty settings and nothing more.

As long as you are using TMO or TMOPlot, map contacts on is much more historically accurate than map contacts off. I've read most of the war reports of American submarines and not one brags about the Commander conning the boat with a paper bag over his head. So far.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

That's because it just isn't possible. Our radar screens on real subs gave ship positions to within 15 yards, regardless of range, as accurate as our map updates. But our game radars are nowhere near adequate to giving us the same accuracy as the real submarines had. Our nav map suffers from error due to binning, so it is not perfectly accurate either.

Therefore map contacts off becomes like crossing eight lanes of traffic on I-75 in the middle of Atlanta with a blindfold on. It is possible, especially if you are blind and have developed the necessary abilities. But is it in any way realistic? No, like map contacts off, it is difficult and I suppose some points must be offered for the sheer difficulty of it, but it is not historical, accurate or any reflection of the actual situation of a radar equipped submarine in the war.

It is a major travesty that the settings are called "realism" settings. They are difficulty settings and nothing more.

As long as you are using TMO or TMOPlot, map contacts on is much more historically accurate than map contacts off. I've read most of the war reports of American submarines and not one brags about the Commander conning the boat with a paper bag over his head. So far.

Well, I actually succeeded in a rough approximation of a distant target's course and speed using the radar screen spokes and very rough approx. radar distance rings. When the target got close enough for the sonar man to call out sound bearings, it helped even more, but even the sonar man is off a couple of degrees usually and at a good distance that can mean a lot of error.

Definitely it was a very rough approximation, but enough to start an end around once close enough to visually feel your way around the outer visibility limit. Two readings were required with several minutes between the readings to get the rough course approximation (forget target speed calculations though). It is doable, but I'm not sure if it's something I'm going to enjoy game play wise.

I did it using the X marker tool, marking the sub position and then the line tool drawing out the same bearing angle 10 miles or so then the compass circle at approx. the same distance, where they intersect, place an X and wait a while, rinse, repeat... It's too sloppy to use for 3 minute speed determination usage however.

I think you might be exaggerating a little bit likening it to conning the boat with a paper bag over his head. Really I don't think they had a map with a little dot moving neatly around on it either. The simulation does suffer from accuracy with the radar screen, but the technique they used had to be something similar to above.

Right now I'm hampered by not being very good with the Position Keeper when they are close enough since I've really just used the Constant Bearing for all my previous gameplay due to its ease of use especially with the moving dot using on-map updates.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

I think you might be exaggerating a little bit likening it to conning the boat with a paper bag over his head. Really I don't think they had a map with a little dot moving neatly around on it either.

Actually the maneuvering board DID have a lighted dot which moved on the course and speed of the target. The light was under the chart, moved by electric motors! Part of shooting torpedoes was comparing the bearing from the plot with actual bearing. If they matched you shot. If not you started the targeting process over.

The analog of that is our attack map, a much maligned and poorly understood part of SH4. Some mods, RFB being notable, actually took away button bar and keyboard access to the attack map, a very unfortunate decision.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Actually the maneuvering board DID have a lighted dot which moved on the course and speed of the target. Part of shooting torpedoes was comparing the bearing from the plot with actual bearing. If they matched you shot. If not you started the targeting process over.

The analog of that is our attack map, a much maligned and poorly understood part of SH4. Some mods, RFB being notable, actually took away button bar and keyboard access to the attack map, a very unfortunate decision.

Interesting re: lighted dot in real sub.

But in game, all the attack map does is display the imaginary target. It could be a lot more useful if it superimposed a mobo style dot on it to match that imaginary target to. (Wonder if a mod, could do that? hint, hint, LOL). As it is, all I use the attack map for is confirmation of my torpedo TDC attack solution and sometimes to watch the fired torpedoes tracking on target.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Actually the maneuvering board DID have a lighted dot which moved on the course and speed of the target. The light was under the chart, moved by electric motors! Part of shooting torpedoes was comparing the bearing from the plot with actual bearing. If they matched you shot. If not you started the targeting process over.

The analog of that is our attack map, a much maligned and poorly understood part of SH4. Some mods, RFB being notable, actually took away button bar and keyboard access to the attack map, a very unfortunate decision.

Did some thinking re:lighted dot you refer to and one has to wonder how did it get the information for moving on the course and speed of the target...

Could it possibly have been by the methods previously discussed and then placed in this makeshift MoBo?

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

The one thing I noticed is in SH3, may be the same with SH4, I haven't checked yet, is that the sonar gives the bearing to the screws not the center of the ship.

That may be where your error is coming in.

Barracuda

You could be on to something.

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

... but even the sonar man is off a couple of degrees usually and at a good distance that can mean a lot of error.
...

The one thing I noticed is in SH3, may be the same with SH4, I haven't checked yet, is that the sonar gives the bearing to the screws not the center of the ship.

That may be where your error is coming in.

Barracuda