SUBSIM Kiel meet

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

From your own site: http://www.tvre.org/en/aiming-with-the-periscope

From the side i posted, eh? Well i read it, but i still thought it was something else. But it isn't
I thought there was a kind of rectangular "box" over both oculars, seems i looked at the wrong side
Thanks for posting this once more, so Einar and Oscar will finally know what it is for.


Does Dan "Elanaiba" read this, too? I am trying to find out where the switches for the clutches of the electric engines are, we both did not find it. But we will.

German boats were quite simple and not Diesel-electric, like the US ones.
So the Diesels had to be installed inline with the propshafts, not scattered all over the place and just feeding the batteries, driving the boat.

Basically it is like with all old "Tauchboote" with Diesel propulsion, you use the Diesel engines for running surfaced, and the electric ones for running submerged. You charge the batteries with the Diesels.
In the 'normal' german boats the electric engines also served as generators, so you did not need additional dynamoes or alternators (not in the IXd1/2/42 and XXI/XXIII types though, they were already different).

You could also use all kinds of combinations. The whole layout is quite simple, but versatile and practical, there are clutches to use and combine all components independently:

- You could run the Diesels alone, coupled straight through the propshafts for moving the boat surfaced (or submerged with a snorkel)
- ^ coupling the electric engines in generator mode to the propshafts driven by the Diesels, thus charging the batteries but reducing overall speed a bit
- Run both Diesels and couple the electric engines on the propshafts driving them directly together with the Diesels, adding a few knots to overall speed, but draining the batteries fast
- Uncouple the rear propshafts with the propellers, switch electric engines to generator mode and couple them to the parts of the propshafts driven by the Diesels (dead in the water then)
- Use one Diesel to drive the boat and the other for charging
- Use one Diesel for running, while maintining/repairing the other Diesel, this way you can either:
a) charge the batteries by driving the electric engines in generator mode coupled to the propshaft driven by the one Diesel
b) charge the batteries by coupling the electric engine in generator mode, of the stopped Diesel side, to the moving propshaft, driven by the propeller moving through the water, Diesel clutch on this side is then uncoupled
or both a) and b)

Does that make sense? Anyway we were looking where all the switches and clutches were

[Onkel Neal]

That does make sense.

Do you remember the discussion we were having about the ballast tanks?

I am still trying to find online documentation that explains the saddle tanks/main ballast tanks/negative tank.



Cutaway illustration

Illustrations never show the saddle tanks in detail. But this one shows 81 - Main immersion tank and 93 - Main fuel tank

and this illustration shows the MB#3 below the control room, like the illustration outside of U-995. On the third section, it lists "MB and RFO Tank 2 Port", is that inside the saddle bulges? I think you were saying that the saddle tanks are one long "tank" with baffles to separate the sections, is that right? So the MB2 and MB4 are contained inside the saddle bulges...?

And of course it shows MB#5 in the center bow, which I would assume is flooded before the stern tank to get the bow down.

There is a "Neg.Buoyancy Tank Port". If that is the "negative" tank (or tanks, one on each side I suppose), that sure seems like a small tank to get you down quickly.

I'm tempted to build a time machine just to go back and answer these questions.

[Catfish]

^ I'd come with your time machine, but minus the depth charges please

"Untertriebszellen" would be something like negative buoyancy cells, maybe to break the surface energy (but i doubt this plays a major role), but in any case to minimise the diving time.

Afaik a usual VII type boat had two of those, located near (left and right of the ballast tank 3, or main ballast tank) the control room, at the center of gravity of the boat. They were operated together, though Werner in his "Iron coffins" speaks about flooding the "fore part" only(?), to increase the diving angle faster in case of a dive. This may be wrong though, Werner's book is more of a novel than a real report, and has been criticized for a lot of wrong technical descriptions. The man "Werner" seems to have never existed, though the man using this pseudonym knew "a bit" about U-boats.

As soon as the U.-cells are flooded, the boat is running with closed upper venting valves, to be able to blow them asap after diving. In case they cannot be blown immediately after the sail submerging, the boat is in danger to "fall through" and get too deep, out of control.


From the "Tauchvorschrift für Unterseeboote":

Untertriebszellen

131. Bei Booten mit Untertriebszellen wird wie folgt verfahren: Die Untertriebszellen werden, wenn das Boot alarmtauchklar ist, über Wasser gefüllt gefahren, so daß dem Boot ein der Größe der Zellen entsprechender Untertrieb gegeben ist. Nach der Ausführung des Befehls „Fluten“ und merklicher Falltendenz werden die Untertriebszellen auf den Befehl des L.I. „Ausdrücken“ ausgedrückt.

(131. If the boat has negative buoyancy cells, the procedures are as follows: The U.-cells are being flooded when the boat is running surfaced, and in "ready to submerge" state (edit: alarmtauchklar=all men at diving positions, boat prepared for emergency dive - so .. usual condition in enemy waters), so that there is an appropriate negative buoyancy. After execution of the order "Fluten" (edit: flood the tanks!) and a perceptible tendency of falling, the cells are being blown out by order of the LI (Leitender Ingenieur).

Der beste Zeitpunkt des Ausdrückens für mittlere Boote ist eine Tiefe von etwa 8 bis 10 m, für große Boote eine Tiefe von 10 bis 12 m. Erfahrungsgemäß beruht die Wirkung der Untertriebszellen in erster Linie im schnelleren Durchbrechen durch die Wasseroberfläche beim Tauchen. Da die schnelle Erreichung großer Tiefen fast ausschließlich von der Lastigkeit und der Fahrtstufe abhängig ist (etwa 25 bis 30°, 2 x G.F.), ist es falsch, die Untertriebszellen auf größerer Tiefe auszudrücken, da der äußerst geringe Vorteil in keinem Verhältnis zu der Gefahr steht, in die das Boot in einem solchen Falle geraten kann. Insbesondere steigen der Luftverbrauch und die Ausdrückdauer ganz erheblich.

(The best time for the blowing ballast of boats of middle size is a depth of 8-10 meters, for big boats a depth of 10-12 meters.
From experience the essential effect of the U.-cells is one of breaking through the water surface during a dive. Because the reaching of greater depths is almost entirely dependent of angle and speed (ca. 25 to 30°, 2x all ahead) it is wrong to blow them out at greater depth, because the advantage would not be in due proportion to the danger, the boat will be in. Especially wastage of air and the time of the blowing ballast increase badly.)

132. L.I.: „Ausdrücken“.

Daraufhin wird das Ventil „Ausdrücken Untertriebszellen“ aufgerissen und mit höchstmöglichem Druck (20 bis 30 at) ausgedrückt. [...]


(132. LI: "Blow ballast".
With this order the "Blow U.-cell" valve will be torn open, and be blown out by the utmost pressure (20-30 at). [...]

The general procedure was to have the U.-cells being fully blown at 19 meters of depth.

From the plan you posted you can see the the one big main air induction tube coming from the conning tower and ending at the centered valve in the engine room above our heads, which had to be closed when diving. The two smaller wheels near it at the sides were for the closing/opening of the two exhausts, which had to be thoroughly maintaind for closing properly. Diesel exhausts and carbon used to build up on the valve surfaces, so they had to be sanded and polished regularly. I guess we spoke about that too, but..

All the best,
CF

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Afaik a usual VII type boat had two of those, located near (left and right of the ballast tank 3, or main ballast tank) the control room, at the center of gravity of the boat. They were operated together, though Werner in his "Iron coffins" speaks about flooding the "fore part" only(?), to increase the diving angle faster in case of a dive. This may be wrong though, Werner's book is more of a novel than a real report, and has been criticized for a lot of wrong technical descriptions. The man "Werner" seems to have never existed, though the man using this pseudonym knew "a bit" about U-boats.

Wait, what? You're saying Herbert Werner was not a real captain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Werner

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Wait, what? You're saying Herbert Werner was not a real captain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Werner

Umm, well, i do now believe he really was a U-boat-'Kommandant', however i was not so sure some time ago, and you, too:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//arc.../t-167387.html


Looking at this thread of a bygone time, i wonder where a lot of those subsim members are hiding now

[Sailor Steve]

Here is some more information:
http://www.uboat.net/men/werner_herbert.htm

Ships hit by Herbert A. Werner

No entries found.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Ships hit by Herbert A. Werner
No entries found.

^Actually as stated, no ships were hit by u-boats under Werner's command- U-415 & U-953. However in his service aboard U-230 as second officer, he probably hit the only one merchant Egyptian....sunk on patrol 7MAR1943 at 02.10 hrs. U-230 attacked the convoy SC-121 south-southeast of Cape Farewell and torpedoed the Egyptian. Siegmann thought that his victim sank and attacked the convoy again at 09.25 hours. He claimed the sinking of another ship with 5000 tons in the former position of the Steam Merchnt Egyptian, but it seems that both attacks were carried out on the same ship. The master, 36 crew, and nine gunners were lost. http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/crews/ship2723.html

Werner followed Commander Siegmann along with the crew to a U-boat familiarization (Baubelehrung) for a new boat in Oct and on 24 Oct 1942 they commissioned the new Type VIIC boat U-230 at Kiel.
On U-230 as First Watch Officer (1WO) young Ltn. Herbert A. Werner served on the boat for 171 days at sea during 4 patrols from Feb to Dec 1943. They only sank one small ship of 2,868 tons - as by this time the U-boats had become the hunted.

http://uboat.net/ops/convoys/convoys.php?convoy=SC-121 In the running wolfpack battle in which 10 merchants and one U-boat were sunk:

Before dark a sharp course change is ordered in an attempt to shake off the boats but without result:U-566 and U-230 make contact and the latter sinks one ship in the night. This event goes unnoticed in the heavy gale and the rescue ship is not warned.

AS 1WO in a heavy gale night attack which had to have been a surface attack...imho

First Watch officer: The second in command. He shadowed the CO closely so that he could take command if the CO fell ill or was killed in battle. His other responsibilities included the boat’s weapons systems and conducting torpedo aiming during surface attacks.

Thus, of the two attacks, Werner likely had to have gotten one of the hits at least. The second attack in daylight (9 gunners?) is naturally anyone's guess and was probably not a surface attack (0925) which might account for Seigmann's ID confusion and mistated tonnage.

[Catfish]

^ I think i read (ahem lol, the friend of a cousin of the wife's father-in-law...) somewhere that Werner sank two ships, however it is possible he had served on other boats which' captains did sink other/more ships, or he did it in the position as a 1. WO or something on those boats.

As said before i believe he was real, however his book is not to be taken literally, when it comes to events he himself experienced as a commander. It is a (good) mix of real events, but he probably did not live through all of them himself. It is a novel, but (i still think) quite a good one. A lot of his observations and technical details are true.

edit Aktung how are you still awake

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Umm, well, i do now believe he really was a U-boat-'Kommandant', however i was not so sure some time ago, and you, too:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//arc.../t-167387.html


Looking at this thread of a bygone time, i wonder where a lot of those subsim members are hiding now

Oh, that must have been an earlier version of Neal, I need to go back and brush up on his positions.

Well, I never doubted he was a real guy, that's what made me jump when I saw your post.