Astute vs Virginia

[ikalugin]

Basically those are two different boats with different specialisation.

Astute class has a complex hull shape, huge side mounted sonar arrays and a relatively strong torpedo armament. This makes Astute the best 4th gen ASW hunter-killer.

Virginia on the other hand is a mass produced, technologically simple multirole sub - jack of all trades but a master of none, the sub that follows the lineage stretching back to 50s.

Hence I would say that they should not be compared directly. A better comparison to the Astute would be... Seawolf class, as Seawolf is also ASW specialised 4th gen submarine. Overall I would say that Astute is better, due to the larger sonar apertures.

What other 4th gen subs you get? Baracuda class - a "minimal" French SSN and the massive Yasen class - the death star with more than twice the weapons capacity of Virginia.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Basically those are two different boats with different specialisation.

Astute class has a complex hull shape, huge side mounted sonar arrays and a relatively strong torpedo armament. This makes Astute the best 4th gen ASW hunter-killer.

Virginia on the other hand is a mass produced, technologically simple multirole sub - jack of all trades but a master of none, the sub that follows the lineage stretching back to 50s.

Hence I would say that they should not be compared directly. A better comparison to the Astute would be... Seawolf class, as Seawolf is also ASW specialised 4th gen submarine. Overall I would say that Astute is better, due to the larger sonar apertures.

What other 4th gen subs you get? Baracuda class - a "minimal" French SSN and the massive Yasen class - the death star with more than twice the weapons capacity of Virginia.

Some good points but has anyone taken into account the crew quality/training?

Now that is a debate all by itself.

[Aktungbby]

Well I'm sure there's no debate at all: British crews are always best! There was no suggestion that Dacres and his men had not done their utmost, or that Dacres had been unwise to engage the Constitution. He was therefore honourably acquitted of all blame for the loss. Anyone who can go into battle with a crew of 272- less 10 impressed Americans allowed to 'sit it out'- and a 'weight-of-metal of 526 lbs: 38 gun broadside vs 450 American's 44 guns and a weight-of-metal 950 lbs broadside: can only be relying on a traditionally well-trained British crew to carry the day! Alas, occasionally better platform technology (thicker oak) messes up the equation. At least "Lucky Jack" Aubrey got even with another Constitution class frigate by improving his crew's rate-of-fire and subterfuge... to overcome the technology! I rest my case!

[ikalugin]

I think the crew training and competence is on about the same levels.

[ikalugin]

In my opinion the area where the USN and RN approaches to SSNs differ is that of the fleet size. Ie USN has a large (many times more than RN) inventory of the SSNs. USN also projects its power all around the world.


Which is why, in my opinion, USN went for a relatively cheap, easy to produce general purpose platform set up (ie LAs and Virginias) while RN went for a more min/max ASW platform set up (T-class and A-class).


The set up is thus dependent on the Navy and the Country of origin, hence making direct comparisons difficult.
For example the late Soviet concept of Yasen class, the class intended to replace Oscars and Akulas (and be produced instead of 3, 3 Mark! classes of submarines designed in the 4th gen) had to have a lot of weapons to cover for all of it's intended roles - now Yasen has more than twice the weapons that Virginia class carries.
French on the other hand were looking at minimal SSNs and that is what they are building - small, cheap, good enough to conduct their mission set SSN platform.

[Kapitan]

Was doing some searching on the forums for something else and this thread came up.

The Astute v Virginia question was answered in 2012.

The winner being HMS Astute.

During the exercises HMS Astute Commanded by Cdr Iain Breckenridge (formerly CO of HMS Tireless & XO on HMS Superb) had many American dignitaries onboard.

Our sonar is fantastic and I have never before experienced holding a submarine at the range we were holding USS New Mexico. The Americans were utterly taken aback, blown away with what they were seeing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hms-astute-arrives-home-from-us-sea-trials--2#:~:text=She%20'battled'%20against%20USS%20New,16 %2C400%20miles%20(26%2C400km).

[TopTorp '92]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Was doing some searching on the forums for something else and this thread came up.

The Astute v Virginia question was answered in 2012.

The winner being HMS Astute.

During the exercises HMS Astute Commanded by Cdr Iain Breckenridge (formerly CO of HMS Tireless & XO on HMS Superb) had many American dignitaries onboard.





https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hms-astute-arrives-home-from-us-sea-trials--2#:~:text=She%20'battled'%20against%20USS%20New,16 %2C400%20miles%20(26%2C400km).

That's an insightful exercise. But, under highly controlled conditions we learn Virginia has a weakness. So? Virginia's mission not likely another fast boat like Astute. Probably needs to counter another carrier of sorts at high speed AND in conjunction with other assets like air assault or cruise missiles.

The thread's question is which sub is better and why.
Better at what? The question is defective, too broad.

[Kapitan]

Indeed and we also have to look at what the boats were designed for.

The Virginia is more general purpose a good all rounder while the astute is primary ASW it’s designed specifically to take down other submarines