I shed a tear or two

[Admiral Halsey]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

And a very sad day in European history. England and France have committed their biggest mistake by declaring war on Germany. Churchill himself recognized this fact after the war. USSR was the true enemy to fight. Shame a thousand times on plutocracies !

What? The USSR(under Stalin as it kinda mellowed out after he died) was bad yes but the Nazi's were a a million steps above them.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey

What? The USSR(under Stalin as it kinda mellowed out after he died) was bad yes but the Nazi's were a a million steps above them.

Please, explain yourself. Seems that you are considering the third reich like the devil !

[UKönig]

Speaking as someone whose relatives fled Nazi Germany (and those who could not and suffered under its jackbooted heel), I can say that they were a very nasty bunch. Russia under stalin was little different, and it would be like forcing people to choose between the horrible and the terrible.
We know the majority of the crimes the nazis carried out on their own citizens, and we know that Russia was under an iron curtain, thus concealing a lot of their own, but, neither one was the model of good government.

[ratatoeskr76]

I respect and understand your feelings, since my family was driven out of their home in 1945 and from the stories my grandmother told me I can imagine how bitter it must be to have to leave your home.

But speeking of Soviet Russia I have to add the following: The western allies knew, that the Soviet leaders were a bunch of murderers. They knew of the war the bolsheviks waged against their own people (before WW2 started) in the 1930s which resulted in millions dead Russians. The bolsheviks killed their own people with pistols, gulags and hunger.

But this didn't mattered to the US government then, Roosevelt saw Stalin as good old uncle Joe.

You can read this for instance in Victor Kravchencos book "I chose freedom" (1946) or in Orlando Figes, A People's Tragedy. After defecting to the USA, Kravchenco didnt understand why the US were not interested in the suffering of the Russians. In Figes book you can read that the USA exported corn to the USSR in the 1930s to help the starving Russians but eventually found out that Soviet government was exporting their own corn in the same time to buy weapons.

The western allies knew that they were teaming up with murdererers.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey

What? The USSR(under Stalin as it kinda mellowed out after he died) was bad yes but the Nazi's were a a million steps above them.

It depends where you start the body count...I'll call it near even as Soviet records are...spotty. http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#RCW Russian Revolution 1917-1922: 9 million; Stalin 1924-1953: 30 million. 28M civilians and 14M soldiers died in the European War. That's 42,000,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on Hitler to one extent or another..not including the 6 million of the death camp holocaust. With those numbers there are no 'good guys!

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Please, explain yourself. Seems that you are considering the third reich like the devil !

CLOSE but opposite: Churchill: “If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil (Stalin) in the House of Commons". http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/churchills-deal-with-the-devil/

Originally Posted by Ukonig

Speaking as someone whose relatives fled Nazi Germany (and those who could not and suffered under its jackbooted heel), I can say that they were a very nasty bunch. Russia under stalin was little different, and it would be like forcing people to choose between the horrible and the terrible.
We know the majority of the crimes the nazis carried out on their own citizens, and we know that Russia was under an iron curtain, thus concealing a lot of their own, but, neither one was the model of good government.

Rule 4 of war: the enemy of my enemy ...is my friend...actually helps rule 1: "In ALL things be strong!" obviated any morality; the creation of a two-front war and the acquisition of a huge fighting force (increase'd firepower)... of endless Russians made for perverse wartime political bedfellows.

Originally Posted by ratatoeskr76

But speeking of Soviet Russia I have to add the following: The western allies knew, that the Soviet leaders were a bunch of murderers. They knew of the war the bolsheviks waged against their own people (before WW2 started) in the 1930s which resulted in millions dead Russians. The bolsheviks killed their own people with pistols, gulags and hunger.

But this didn't mattered to the US government then, Roosevelt saw Stalin as good old uncle Joe.


The western allies knew that they were teaming up with murdererers.

Churchill in defense of the pact with 'Uncle Joe': "No one has been a more consistent opponent of Communism for the last twenty-five years. I will unsay no word I have spoken about it. But all this fades away before the spectacle which is now unfolding. The past, with its crimes, its follies, its tragedies, flashes away.… The Russian danger is therefore our danger, and the danger of the United States, just as the cause of any Russian fighting for hearth and house is the cause of free men and free peoples in every quarter of the globe.” Roosevelt was as cunning as Churchill and under no illusions about ol' Joe. He'd learned much from his cousin Teddy....

[U505995]

As far as I know the Soviets never rounded up ethnic groups or other races with the sole purpose of exterminating them like rodents. The millions of deaths attributed to starvation are a result of poor collective farming ideas and wasn't done to purposely wipe out a group of people.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon U-48

As far as I know the Soviets never rounded up ethnic groups or other races with the sole purpose of exterminating them like rodents. The millions of deaths attributed to starvation are a result of poor collective farming ideas and wasn't done to purposely wipe out a group of people.

WRONG! "Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there (The Kulaks) seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.... By the end of 1933, nearly 25 percent of the population of the Ukraine, including three million children, had perished. The Kulaks as a class were destroyed and an entire nation of village farmers had been laid low." http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm (and u wonder why the Ukraine doesn't want Putin back!)

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon U-48

As far as I know the Soviets never rounded up ethnic groups or other races with the sole purpose of exterminating them like rodents. The millions of deaths attributed to starvation are a result of poor collective farming ideas and wasn't done to purposely wipe out a group of people.

And Germans haven't exterminated any people. There are still a lot of Jews in Europe ! (ps : it's not a problem for me, I don't want to kill anyone, lol). And yes, a lot of Jews died during WW2, but a very few number compared to many other people. And they were not assassinated by the "nazis" because they were Jews. Most of them died at the end of the war (1944 and 1945). Why ? Because of allied bombings which destroyed communication ways and caused famines and epidemics (typhus, inter alia). Germans would have been crazy to kill these people. That was the war industry workforce !!!

[Gilbou]

The other navies respected them.
Because of how young they were, their losses and because they kept the nazification out of their fleet.

They stand proud today. Untainted by the Reich and as soldiers.