America's fancy new fighter jet stinks at fighting. And the US Navy doesn't care.

[ikalugin]

Most stealth aircraft (ie F117A, F22A, JSF series, B2A to lesser extend) have shaping features that are either equal in size or smaller to the wavelength, but are not significantly larger than it.
This leads to a such interaction between the radiowave and the aircraft that the shaping features do not actually matter, the wavelength (by enlarge) ignores those.
RAM coatings wise, you either make those broadband and require RAM coatings/structures thickness to be on par or thicker than the wavelength, or you create narrowband RAM coastings/structures. This is why RAM coatings/structures are defeated by even shorter wavelengh radars of L-band (which also partially defeats shaping).

JSF is too big to fail, even if it's stealth (which comes from way back) is no longer a decisive factor. A purpose built, low level flight platform is another matter however, even though you could fit an L-band radar that could detect 0.005m2 RCS at 600km onto a plane.

In my opinion stealth sort of lost it's thunder back in 1987, with S300V2 (which had mobile long wavelength radar for target detection, surprise) coming around (unless you believe in the 0.00000000000001m2 RCS figures given for F117A and F22A) and rendered tactically (via fully mobile VHF/UHF and other radars) and strategically (via fielding of new long range means - such as beyound horizon radars) irrelevant, especially at high altitudes, as current airborne radar technology is still some ways behind the ground based stuff.

[Wildcat]

I've been flying combat sims (online) since Jane's F15 came out, all I can say is that I've never found maneuverability to be the most important issue in a fight. If the fight did devolve into close quarters it always ended within 30 seconds and 1-2IR missile shots.

Sure, you can evade missiles all day long but while you're doing that your enemy is just going to close distance while you can't shoot at him because you've lost your lock, or your missile range is going to be too short because you've lost energy evading the missiles, but he's still up high and now heading in the opposite direction. Besides that a good BVR fighter will send more than 1 missile your way on the first salvo and time the second one to really mess with your evasion efforts.

It all comes down to using the best features of your aircraft and the assets on your side in order to win.

You wouldn't try to dogfight a Zero in a P-38 would you? (I used to fly these exclusively online and racked up kills like crazy in both. Flying one like you'd fly the other would be a recipe for quick death). Fly your aircraft in a way that compliments its strengths. Just because an aircraft is maneuverable doesn't make it better than yours.

IMO the American side has better tools (Missiles, link data, etc) than the current Russian or Chinese offerings, and in the end that is what is most important, because I don't see any real F-35 vs F-16 engagements happening in the near future.

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Most stealth aircraft (ie F117A, F22A, JSF series, B2A to lesser extend) have shaping features that are either equal in size or smaller to the wavelength, but are not significantly larger than it.
This leads to a such interaction between the radiowave and the aircraft that the shaping features do not actually matter, the wavelength (by enlarge) ignores those.
RAM coatings wise, you either make those broadband and require RAM coatings/structures thickness to be on par or thicker than the wavelength, or you create narrowband RAM coastings/structures. This is why RAM coatings/structures are defeated by even shorter wavelengh radars of L-band (which also partially defeats shaping).

JSF is too big to fail, even if it's stealth (which comes from way back) is no longer a decisive factor. A purpose built, low level flight platform is another matter however, even though you could fit an L-band radar that could detect 0.005m2 RCS at 600km onto a plane.

In my opinion stealth sort of lost it's thunder back in 1987, with S300V2 (which had mobile long wavelength radar for target detection, surprise) coming around (unless you believe in the 0.00000000000001m2 RCS figures given for F117A and F22A) and rendered tactically (via fully mobile VHF/UHF and other radars) and strategically (via fielding of new long range means - such as beyound horizon radars) irrelevant, especially at high altitudes, as current airborne radar technology is still some ways behind the ground based stuff.

In the end who knows, it's in Russia's best interest to claim their brand new radar can easily detect any stealth plane, just as it is in the US's interests to keep their cards close to their chest and let Russia think it can do what they claim it does. Until the actual event of combat between these two systems, we really do not know which one would come out ahead, or where the truth lies.

Shaping alone never entirely works as the best it can hope to accomplish is decreasing the radar signature and lowering the detection range (which is the entire purpose of stealth, your not invisible, your just harder to detect). You can't eliminate all the possible radar returns by shaping alone. The big question is if there exist RAM coatings that still work or not. Plus of course there are other piloting tricks that can be used to defeat radar beyond NOE flying, even with non-stealthy aircraft.

As for radar detection it was already known that the F-117 had some detection problems even before the start of the F-35 design process, that was one of the reasons why it was fazed out (the other being the massive downtime and support/maintenance costs). So it doesn't make a huge amount of sense to add stealth capability at such a greater expense, knowing it doesn't work at all. But then again I seriously question a lot of the design decisions when it comes to the F-35, so who knows.

Originally Posted by Wildcat

I've been flying combat sims (online) since Jane's F15 came out, all I can say is that I've never found maneuverability to be the most important issue in a fight. If the fight did devolve into close quarters it always ended within 30 seconds and 1-2IR missile shots.

I've been messing around in flight sims since Microsoft Flight Simulator 1.0, all the way through to the present, and been flying versions of Falcon 4.0 from release to today (over two decades now), the IL-2 series, Rise of Flight, DCS and some of their study sims, and just about every single major helicopter simulation ever released for pc.

I can think of many occasions in Falcon 4 or DCS where I was in a guns only situation against another player because we had already expended all of our ordinance against each other or other players that had been already shot down. Including a few times where me and another player were so evenly matched you lost because you ran out of fuel.

Sure, you can evade missiles all day long but while you're doing that your enemy is just going to close distance while you can't shoot at him because you've lost your lock, or your missile range is going to be too short because you've lost energy evading the missiles, but he's still up high and now heading in the opposite direction. Besides that a good BVR fighter will send more than 1 missile your way on the first salvo and time the second one to really mess with your evasion efforts.

I've killed plenty of players with maddog AIM-9 or AIM-120 shots who though they had me tied up with their missiles, particularly in BVR settings. Short of being bushwacked, it is exceedingly rare that I won't have a chance to fire back before going into evasive maneuvers. Ripple firing is also the norm. The key in BVR combat is preparation. Very skillful pilots can also generally maintain most of their energy while defeating missile threats, but you really need to understand the missile you are fighting.

It all comes down to using the best features of your aircraft and the assets on your side in order to win.

You wouldn't try to dogfight a Zero in a P-38 would you? (I used to fly these exclusively online and racked up kills like crazy in both. Flying one like you'd fly the other would be a recipe for quick death). Fly your aircraft in a way that compliments its strengths. Just because an aircraft is maneuverable doesn't make it better than yours.

I would consider booming and zooming a Zero in a P-38 to be dogfighting it, but no of course I would not try to turn with it. But then again with modern air weapons trying to boom and zoom is almost suicidal against a plane with all aspect IR missiles.

But this is exactly my point. The F-35 reportedly does not have either advantage as it has both poor energy management and poor maneuverability, it doesn't have either and still lost to a 3-4 decades old plane where the F-35 had every single advantage as far as load outs (F-16 have severe penalties to maneuverability and energy while carrying twin fueled drop tanks). The only thing going for this plane is its stealth features, which are utterly useless up close. This also means that the F-35 would have almost no chance of successfully evading a missile that has locked on to it.

If your fighting a plane that can turn like a Zero and has the speed and energy of a P-38, while your plane can't do either as well, and the other pilot is as skilled as you are, who do you think is going to win the fight?

This is why I am saying if the F-35 is performing as poorly as the test pilot claims, it is in serous trouble if it ended up in combat against a modern well equipped foe.

IMO the American side has better tools (Missiles, link data, etc) than the current Russian or Chinese offerings, and in the end that is what is most important, because I don't see any real F-35 vs F-16 engagements happening in the near future.

That I really do not agree with, in fact I think you have it backwards. For one thing modern Russian fighters are more dangerous than the F-16C/D (as much as I love the F-16, the C Block 52 are pretty much out matched), as they have better energy and maneuverability, and longer ranged weapons. Current gen missiles are also very scary and much harder to evade or fool than ever before. The biggest problem the US has is that it does not have any effective long range air to air missiles any more, where as Russia does. This means Russia has a huge advantage when it comes to a head to head BVR fight as they can shoot well before the US planes can shoot back. Even their IR missiles are longer ranged. This I think is one of the key reasons why the US has been going with stealthy plane designs like the F-35, to try to get the advantage back.

[ikalugin]

As far as I am aware RAM coatings issue is due to underlying basic physics, unless US not only had a theoretical breakthrough in radio physics on Ufimtsev level, but also a simmilar breaktrhough in relevant material science and implimented those breakthroughs, then such changes are not possible.

I am not aware of such breakthroughs. And, in all likelyhood, we would be if they did occur 10 years ago.

My point is that the improvements in radar technology outpaced the reach of stealth, as permitted by known physics principles. This was due to increases in power (ie new naval L-band radar with around 1.5 mega-watts of impulse power and 1.3 consumed), improvements in mobility. This would be further improved via the GaN and better modules becomming availiable in the near future (GaN gives around 40 percent average emited power efficiency vs 20 currently availiable).
Improvements in signal processing methods and means (multistatic arrays, reverse SAR) would further improve counter stealth detection to the point, where it becomes irrelevant, as you would be able detect tertiary effects of aircraft flying through air even if aircraft itself is invisible and primary/secondary effects are fully supressed.

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

As far as I am aware RAM coatings issue is due to underlying basic physics, unless US not only had a theoretical breakthrough in radio physics on Ufimtsev level, but also a simmilar breaktrhough in relevant material science and implimented those breakthroughs, then such changes are not possible.

I am not aware of such breakthroughs. And, in all likelyhood, we would be if they did occur 10 years ago.

My point is that the improvements in radar technology outpaced the reach of stealth, as permitted by known physics principles. This was due to increases in power (ie new naval L-band radar with around 1.5 mega-watts of impulse power and 1.3 consumed), improvements in mobility. This would be further improved via the GaN and better modules becomming availiable in the near future (GaN gives around 40 percent average emited power efficiency vs 20 currently availiable).
Improvements in signal processing methods and means (multistatic arrays, reverse SAR) would further improve counter stealth detection to the point, where it becomes irrelevant, as you would be able detect tertiary effects of aircraft flying through air even if aircraft itself is invisible and primary/secondary effects are fully supressed.

Perhaps you are right, I don't know. Still my point remains, if stealth really is so ineffective, why is the US and other countries still investing so much money in its development and application. If the US has indeed found a way around the problems you mention, it would certainly be classified to the extreme. Even if it happened 10 years ago, that doesn't necessarily matter as there are still a number of highly classified projects going back 50 years now where still very little is known about them.

There are also a lot of other questions we can't answer either, such as the real world impact of these competing forms of technology. Such as even if the stealth planes can be detected and even tracked to a certain extent with newer ground based radar systems, can they really be effectively engaged with missiles, and/or aircraft, and what are the limitations as to range and other factors. Also what about the other methods of avoiding radar detection, particularly when coupled with stealth, how does that effect the equation.

Neither side can I think fully answer these questions, or be fully certain of either technology. Physics is always going to our best guesses (theories) based on the evidence we have at hand, and all of our theories are flawed because of this.

Lastly even if Russia really does have the technology to counter stealth. That in of itself does not mean a whole lot. Russia and NATO/US are very unlikely to come to direct head to head combat, and it will be quite a long while before most other countries will be able to afford to deploy such technology in any quantity for it to be of much use.

[ikalugin]

Stealth is still usefull in a number of roles. Because primary means for stealth detection (apart from optics, as those are weather dependent) use large apertures (either for high power*aperture or for long wavelengths), stealth still does offer some advantages, especially if coupled with otherwise capable platform (in terms of ECM/kinematics), as then it gives you an edge in engagements, for example in missile lock on probability (due to stealth, those would lock on at shorter ranges, thus increasing chance of evasive manuevers working out).

The problem here is that the improvements in electronics have led to a situation, where long wavelength radars (such as Nebo-M, Nebo-SVU and many others) allow for ARH missile guidance, as they now have sufficient accuracy for this. I could provide relevant calculations if you so desire. L-band and other high aperture*power AESA radars always had that accuracy in the first place.

Sure, Russia and NATO are unlikely to fight it out, but at the same time those counter stealth means are availiable for export and are affordable. For example beyound horizon radar set with 3000km range is priced at ~200m USD.

[Bospor]

A few years back I watched very interesting documentary that was based on declassified info from Soviet archives. In the 70's Russian designers were saying that the way the aircraft designs had been progressing, we eventually would come to a time when the "better" plane's technology would become unaffordable. I think we are there now. F-22 took that direction, but accountants were telling the top brass that it's not realistic to purchase fighter planes at that price. I think that's why everything got downgraded to F-35. We are basically at a crossroads for modern avionics. That very same documentary showed how they experimented with technology that allows people control environment with the power of their mind. Truly Jedi stuff! They collected people from all over the USSR with paranormal abilities and were studying them. They showed one guy who was standing on scales and was able to decrease his weight just by his mind power You can actually see the scale indicator move. So the direction they had decided to take is to learn how to control and fly the planes with human power I guess. It sounds funny I know, but they actually had achieved some serious results from all that. of course most of it is still classified. After the collapse of the Soviet Union however, many of these scientists immigrated to Israel and the country had become the leader in "western world" in military technologies controlled by human brain. So perhaps it is time for US Air Force to begin development of a completely new way to fly the planes. Maybe they already doing that, we will never know till its all done. These F-35's are simply there to fill the gap between what we call conventional flight and future tech.