Life and Debt: A Greek Tragedy (merged)

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

He actually doesn't. At first he said he would stay in power and enforce the result of the election no matter which way it would go. Later then he said he would step down if he loses that election. According to Martin Schulz (president of the European parliament) he has been known to change his opinion quite often.

Huh, didn't know the former of that. Ah well, sticks him back into the normal politician category then.

Still, at least he isn't Golden Dawn.

[Jimbuna]

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is expected to address the rally for the "No" vote, opposing the terms.

EU leaders have warned that a "No" vote could see Greece leave the eurozone.

A poll published in Ethnos newspaper on Friday showed the two sides evenly split, with the "Yes" vote at 44.8% and the "No" vote at 43.4%. But the same poll showed 74% in favour of staying in the euro, with just 15% choosing a return to a national currency.

Despite the campaigning, however, there is still a chance the referendum may be suspended.
Greece's top court, the Council of State, is due to rule on the legality of Sunday's vote and whether it breaches the constitution.

Mr Tsipras has said that a strong "No" vote will help lead to a "better agreement" with creditors.
"If the 'Yes' vote wins the banks will open with a deal, which will not be viable, but if that is the decision of the Greek people, either from fear or from pressure, or choice, we will respect it," he said.
"If the 'No' vote wins, and the 'no' is stronger, I assure you, the very next day I will be in Brussels and a deal will be signed."

But EU leaders have warned that a "No" vote on Sunday may see Greece forced from the eurozone, something Mr Tsipras says he does not want to happen.
"If the Greeks will vote 'No' the Greek position will be dramatically weakened," said EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker. Even with a "Yes" vote "we'll face difficult negotiations", he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33375653

What a mess

[Schroeder]

"If the 'No' vote wins, and the 'no' is stronger, I assure you, the very next day I will be in Brussels and a deal will be signed."

The only deal he'll sign on that day will be his signature on his return flight ticket. What a moron.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

The only deal he'll sign on that day will be his signature on his return flight ticket. What a moron.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33378057

Greek PM Alexis Tsipras has called on voters to reject "blackmail" when they vote in a bailout referendum on Sunday.
In a short TV address, he insisted Greece's presence in the EU was not at stake and urged voters to reject the "sirens of scaremongering"

The impression I get of Tsipras is that he is less interested in economic considerations than in political power. He is prepared to sacrifice the country for political theater in which he gets to play the starring role. Europe has hoped that, having the responsibility of government, Tsipras would morph from a radical into a moderate. That cannot happen because the guy relies on firebrand rhetoric to garner sufficient political support. The only good outcome I can see is the implosion of Syriza and the reconfiguration of political forces in Athens. The self-interested politicians we have seen in power up to now cannot make the decision that best serves the country.

The only sensible solution would be a government of national unity that unites the moderate forces of all parties. The Syriza party has no plan, there is no plan B and there isn't even a plan A. Decisions seem to come ad hoc and result from the shifting influence of its factions driven by events as they occur and informed by a misguided ideology. What Greece needs a strong government that can take the unpopular decisions needed to take the country out off the crisis. Papandreo was too weak, Samaras was too weak and Tsipras is apparently, too mad to take the right decisions.

[Oberon]

I think you've got the head of the nail there Torplexed, he is playing the '300' card, trying to portray Greece as standing up to the Persians. I think he's definitely dreaming if he thinks that a no vote is going to result in better terms. The EU is desperate, but not that desperate.

That being said, I view the potential collapse of Syriza with a small amount of alarm, because of the 3rd largest party in Greece, the fascist Golden Dawn. Syriza is trouble, Golden Dawn are dangerous. If the Greeks are forced to go to the election again because Syriza has failed, I fear that Golden Dawn are going to increase their share of the vote and get to either opposition or main party status.

[Jimbuna]

I believe it could only get worse (should that be possible) if the Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis were ever to take over

Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis has accused Athens' creditors of "terrorism", the day before a referendum on an international bailout.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33393759

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I believe it could only get worse (should that be possible) if the Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis were ever to take over



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33393759

Both him and Tsipras have threatened to resign in the event of a Yes vote. We'll see. But, they both probably have cozy jobs lined up if they do.

Tsipras could have been a strong leader if he had turned moderate. Perhaps he could still unite the moderate forces from other parties, even though his tactics have discredited him.

Greece isn't out off the woods yet by far, even with a Yes vote.

[Lionclaw]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I believe it could only get worse (should that be possible) if the Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis were ever to take over



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33393759

Terrorism?

Well... If you don't pay back the loans, you should expect that you won't get any more money until you do.

And he is the Finance Minister?

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I believe it could only get worse (should that be possible) if the Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis were ever to take over



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33393759

Good. They can now cancel all future talks with us, after all nations don't negotiate with terrorists right? Let them deal with their problem on their own.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

Both him and Tsipras have threatened to resign in the event of a Yes vote. We'll see. But, they both probably have cozy jobs lined up if they do.

Tsipras could have been a strong leader if he had turned moderate. Perhaps he could still unite the moderate forces from other parties, even though his tactics have discredited him.

Greece isn't out off the woods yet by far, even with a Yes vote.

Originally Posted by Lionclaw

Terrorism?

Well... If you don't pay back the loans, you should expect that you won't get any more money until you do.

And he is the Finance Minister?

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Good. They can now cancel all future talks with us, after all nations don't negotiate with terrorists right? Let them deal with their problem on their own.

Aye, sad (for the Greek people) but true

[Oberon]

And now for something completely different:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...a-huge-crisis/

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Oberon

And now for something completely different:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...a-huge-crisis/

(It's worth noting that the Greeks have tried to appropriate the German philosopher Immanuel Kant, employing Kant's writings about doing what's right to argue against paying back unfair debts.)

I don't think that approach will cut any ice with Merkel, but it's worth a shot.

[Mr Quatro]

even if the vote is "yes" or "no" the settlement of the debt talks will continue on.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/07...polls-showing/

Yale University political science professor Stathis Kalyvas said the Greek government will face daunting challenges no matter which way the vote goes.
If the "no" side wins, Kalyvas said other eurozone countries could refuse to negotiate a better deal for Greece because of their distrust of Tsipras.
A "yes" win won't mean a road to the negotiating table strewn with roses either, but would likely usher in a new government with a shot at negotiating an improved deal, Kalyvas said.

The Greeks are tough people ... I think they will do the right thing.

Some good is already coming out of this debt crisis with doctors and dentist offering their services to the unable to pay population.

Greece could become the poster child of Europe

[Schroeder]

Looks like they have voted for a no. Good, maybe we can finally slam the doors shut and cut our losses.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

and cut our losses.

$16bn worth of losses.

http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/.../12012008.html

The newspaper says he has warned Angela Merkel's cabinet that a Grexit would hit the Bundesbank's profits and have a knock-on effect on Germany's budget. The bank's losses could top €14.4bn (£10.3bn, $16bn) in the event of a Grexit, he says.