Glad to see majority of Israeli voters...

[MH]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Now, I wonder who exactly created this power vacuum?



Makes you wonder what kind of terrible mess would be created if politicians who believe like Bubbles got their war with Iran. Would probably wind up creating that Caliphate that Daesh so desperately want.

Yes , Bush was definitely naïve selling democracy to bunch of nuts... putting aside his supposed motivations Iraq had an opportunity here after getting rid of of now so missed and loved Sadam Hussein.
Iran has great part in all the the mess as well...and now is pretending to be the reasonable side.

Bush made a big gambling mistake yet regarding the blaming war it is somewhat similar to Obamophobia and the usual political manipulation for masses from different perspective.
Besides that i always say...give some credit to the local people as well . People in the west have too high regard of themselves thinking they are guilty of everything.
It is almost? racist lol

I think it's more to due that the people and the regime have different ideas how one should live rather then the conditions the country is in. Iran (Persia) before the revolution was quite a modern society, the same can't be said about the policies of the ruling clerics you have now.

Yet the Islamic revolution happened no?
You also discard the sanctions right?

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by MH

Yet the Islamic revolution happened no?
You also discard the sanctions right?

Yes it did.
No, I didn't discard the sanctions (I said that I think doesn't mean though that I'm right about it, it where just my personal thoughts)

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by MH

Yes , Bush was definitely naïve selling democracy to bunch of nuts... putting aside his supposed motivations Iraq had an opportunity here after getting rid of of now so missed and loved Sadam Hussein.
Iran has great part in all the the mess as well...and now is pretending to be the reasonable side.

Bush made a big gambling mistake yet regarding the blaming war it is somewhat similar to Obamophobia and the usual political manipulation for masses from different perspective.
Besides that i always say...give some credit to the local people as well . People in the west have too high regard of themselves thinking they are guilty of everything.
It is almost? racist lol

I do ponder if Saddam was still in power whether the Arab Spring would have resulted in either an Iraqi civil war or his removal. Failing that, I ponder how Iraq would have reacted with Syria in the state that it's in. Would he have moved into Syria in an attempt to capitalise on the situation in the way that Iran is now.

I don't so much blame Bush for all of the aftermath of the war, but I do blame him for putting it in motion, and creating the power vacuum in Iraq by removing Saddam. The west and Saddam did not see eye to eye, this much is obvious (despite arming him against Iran) but there is a saying about the lesser of two evils.

And all this talk of 'regime change' that Bubbles and the politicians who speak his language are going on about just sounds ominously similar to the sort of language that we heard from Colin Powell and Dick Cheney in the build up to 2003.

[vienna]

The interesting part of the whole "regime change" subject vis-à-vis GW Bush is how, during his initial campaign for President in 2000, he was most fervent and adamant in his assertion the US should not be involved in "nation building" and, by electing him to the Presidency, he would halt the practice. Here is a compilation of GW Bush the candidate in 2000 on the subject:



and the nutshell:



Too bad Bush, the candidate, never got to be Bush, the President...

...and we still live with the consequences, still escalating, of his failed "policies"...


<O>

[CCIP]

I certainly doubt anyone in Israel misses Saddam - for the part of my family that lives there, one of their scariest memories had always been the Scud strikes during the Gulf War, partly because one hit close to home, partly because at the time they were widely rumoured to be loaded with chemical or biological weapons.

That said, I think as awful as they were, the Baathist (and other secular conservative) regimes were perhaps not the greatest target for the West in the Middle East, and I think the support for their destruction was short-sighted and certainly hasn't done Israel a lot of favours. It's let a lot of devils out of the box, and Iran has reaped the most benefits.

And, as I keep saying, I don't believe there is a military solution to the Iran problem. That's a stupid idea. Nor do I believe Iran is so stupid as to be looking for a military solution to Israel. Iran's biggest priority is expanding their sphere of influence, and having as much access to the world market as they can while they're at it. Does that mean they need to be appeased? Of course not. But I think the question here is far from as simple as "to Israel or not to Israel". And I think the far more pressing question for the West in particular is what to do about the power vacuum left in the wake of the Arab Spring, which is gradually getting filled up by all the wrong people. Aiming to create another power vacuum in Iran would neither be practical nor solve it (and arguably would make things a lot worse).

As for the assessment of the results of the Iraq war for the Americans, I'd suggest considering that the only winners of that conflict were Iran, and to a lesser extent Russia and China. Great cause for tens of thousands of lost American lives, no doubt.

[Oberon]

Iran doesn't need to consider a military solution for Israel, because Israels current course is self-destructive. Netanyahus re-election was a gift to Hamas and there'll certainly be more Israeli action in the Gaza Strip and West Bank this year, if we make it to summer without it then it will be surprising.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Iran doesn't need to consider a military solution for Israel, because Israels current course is self-destructive. Netanyahus re-election was a gift to Hamas and there'll certainly be more Israeli action in the Gaza Strip and West Bank this year, if we make it to summer without it then it will be surprising.

I don't get it, how do you figure the election of Likud Party and Netanyahu are a gift to Hamas?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I don't get it, how do you figure the election of Likud Party and Netanyahu are a gift to Hamas?

It's not so much the Likud party, it's the people that Netanyahu is going to have to form a coalition with, as well as his rhetoric before the election.
Then there's idiots like the Deputy speaker of the Knesset .

[August]

I don't get how you think Israel's current course is "self destructive". In your opinion there is a less self destructive path that they can follow?