Side discussion about General Topics forum

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, let's get this out there. In this forum, there is a General Topics section where we all participate in discussion of current events. A man has his head hacked off, yeah, there are going to be strong feelings. We're looking at another war with Islamic extremists. Who's not feeling tense and frustrated, angry. Oh? You are? Great, them have a little compassion for the rest of us.

No one wants to let the forum fill up with racists and hate-mongers. I don't think it is in danger of becoming so. When we do get the occaisonal racist nutter here, we let him expand on his views until he has clearly crossed the line. Then we ease him out.

I am not pointing a finger at any one individual, and I do not exempt myself from the situation, but I need to use the Steven Sotloff thread as an example.

In post 297 Skybird explains at length why he thinks Islam is bound to be an extremist doctrine, by its own rules and writings. It appears to me Sky does not necessarily hate all Muslims, but he thinks that all Muslims should be tarred by the same brush. Basically, he's saying that Islam is extremist.

In post 298 BossMark says something about deporting relatives of yahoos who have gone to join the ISIS cause. It's obvious this horrific crime has upset him, and why not? It upset me, it's pretty normal to have this reaction, and appropriate.

In 299 Tarjak rather patiently explains that won't work, or cannot be done ethically. The important thing is, he explains his reasoning.

in 300 Tarjak states to Sky:

It is comments like these that can only be likened to the propaganda used by hate groups to attract impressionable people to their cause. Yet again your wall of text completely misses the point.

This simply makes it appear that you are closer to being the thing you hate and spend so much time railing against.

Well, that was rather elegant and to the point. If you think someone is a bigot, that's the way to respond.


In summary: use your logic to win your point, don't be lazy and try to shut the other person down by reaching into your toolbox and throwing out the label "bigot", "sheep", etc. You can use the ignore feature if you think your are dealing with a bigot, utopian, or garden variety knucklehead.

Remember: just because someone does not see things as you do does not make them wrong. Unless it happens that you woke up this morning and discovered you are God.

Also, know when to stop. I've had my share of heated discussions here, and when I felt I was repeating myself, I stopped and moved on without trying to WIN!! or get in the last word. Don't let your passion turn you into a zealot.

Finally, I am not infallible or an uninterested observer here, but I offer this post as a reminder that we need to work a little harder to keep the discussion of difficult topics civil.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Give up Marcus, you'll never get him to believe anything other than all Muslims are hell bent on global domination.

Ah but the point is not to change the view of the bigoted, but to prevent others from being infected by thier poisonous thinking. Particularly when said bigots are comfortable in being labelled as such.

If noone speaks out to the contrary, we all become complicit in the spread of their hatred.

Remember Edmund Burke's words. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

That and the sparring can be entertaining.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TarJak

Ah but the point is not to change they view of the bigoted, but to prevent others from being infected by thier poisonous thinking. Particularly when said bigots are comfortable in being labelled as such.

If noone speaks out to the contrary, we all become complicit in the spread of their hatred.

Remember Edmund Burke's words. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

That and the sparring can be entertaining.

Well, I'll leave it to you, I've done my time, nearly a decade of it, and it is now incredibly depressing and tiring to be exposed to bigotry and hatred at every turn. From now on, I think I'll resort to the ignore button wherever possible, if only for my mental health.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well, I'll leave it to you, I've done my time, nearly a decade of it, and it is now incredibly depressing and tiring to be exposed to bigotry and hatred at every turn. From now on, I think I'll resort to the ignore button wherever possible, if only for my mental health.

I know what you mean. it is a bit like bashing your head against a brick wall. But I'm an annoyingly relentless bugga who does this for fun. If it stops being entertaining, then I stop doing it. I've been winding people up since forever and the older I get the more enjoyment I get out of it.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It depends which part of which post you are talking about, his views are entirely contradictory.
On the one hand he has the muslims under the bed nightmare where the entire population is out to get him because that's what he likes to believe.
On the other hand he has his wahibi streak where the overwhelmingly vast majority of muslims are not really muslims and should be put to the death because he likes the nutty interpretation of certain hadiths over the Koran.

Or as Oberon implies, don't expect him to make sense.

The key thing is to not support his xenophobic views and wherever possible, speak out against them.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by TarJak

It is comments like these that can only be likened to the propaganda used by hate groups to attract impressionable people to their cause.

This simply makes it appear that you are closer to being the thing you hate and spend so much time railing against.

Blablabla. More smoke screens from you.

Like almost always.

One is wondering whether behind it there even is anything.

Anyhow, I am tired of your always personal aiming, so I leave it here. My above posting is so clear and direct that everybody reading it can easily realise whether he must feel targetted by it, or not.

[TarJak]

Well if you can't see through the smoke, you should stop smoking. Its bad for your health.

I'm sure that everyone who can read can see through what you are saying to the heart of the matter.

Good luck on your next trip and stay away from kebab shops.

[Onkel Neal]

I'm going to say this again, if only to ensure I am being more clear: stop calling names. In every argument or discussion there are 2, 3 or more sides, and yours is not by law morally superior. You need to make your point without labeling the other member. Dismissing someone as a "bigot" is a lazy way to win an argument; you are really just trying to shut down the discussion.

If someone does post something with racist hatred, it will be pretty clear; what they say will reveal them.

[Oberon]

Likewise, calling people naive, fools, sheep for not believing in the same thing you are is a bad thing. Likewise calling for the death of people and the destruction of society is probably a bad thing too.

But there you go.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I'm going to say this again, if only to ensure I am being more clear: stop calling names. In every argument or discussion there are 2, 3 or more sides, and yours is not by law morally superior. You need to make your point without labeling the other member. Dismissing someone as a "bigot" is a lazy way to win an argument; you are really just trying to shut down the discussion.

If someone does post something with racist hatred, it will be pretty clear; what they say will reveal them.

If I've crossed a line the infract, brig or keelhaul me for it. If I see bigotry then I call it what it is. Whether you or anyone else call it lazy, I don't care.

If you're happy for Subsim to be a vehicle for hate, then that's fine I 'll be on my way.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by TarJak

If I've crossed a line the infract, brig or keelhaul me for it. If I see bigotry then I call it what it is. Whether you or anyone else call it lazy, I don't care.

If you're happy for Subsim to be a vehicle for hate, then that's fine I 'll be on my way.

A vehicle for hate? You really think that's what we have? If only "hate" was easy to pin down, and not subject to opinion and personal bias.

[Oberon]

Hate is defined as 'intense dislike', I would tend to concur that Skybird has an 'intense dislike' for Islam to the point where it has become irrational.
If it was radical Islam, or ISIL I could understand, but to him there is no difference between the lot.

It's pretty clear that there is a dislike of Islam on this forum, and that is pretty much emotionally based, and leads to unhelpful comments such as "Let's turn the Middle East to glass" or "We should just nuke 'em" and so on and so forth, the sort of gung-ho phrase that you attach to a stereotypical caricature of an American (or 'Murcan' to be precise )

Of course, the question is how does this sort of attitude reflect on the rules? These state:

Subsim allows for a wide range of opinions, politics, and attitudes but we do not accept members who are associated with hate groups. Examples include but are not limited to Neo-Nazi groups, Westboro Baptist Church types, racist supremacists, Klansmen, black militants, Islamic militants, Jewish conspiracists, anti-Semites, posting links to racist music, propaganda denying the Holocaust.

Now, we've already got one person who is a Jewish conspiracist (Alex), and one who was quite anti-Sematic (Zeewolf), but where does this wave of anti-Islam fit into the rules? Is it not the same thing as anti-Semitism? A clear and continual attack on a religion and the avocation of the dissolution of both the religion and many of its members? Are we not in danger of walking down a path last trod in western Europe (and America) in the late 1920s and the 1930s which lead to the Holocaust? If one were to take one of the many popular anti-Islam rants on the internet and replace the words Muslim or Islam with Jew or Jewish, how dissimilar would it be to something from that dark time?
Let me be clear, I'm not saying that we should ban discussion on radical Islam, because the radicalisation and politicisation of Islam is a concern to all alike, even to Muslims themselves, however I think that there should be more encouragement to steer people away from associating 2.2bn people with the actions of 100,000, lest we encourage other gross generalisations.

[MH]

Originally Posted by TarJak

It is comments like these that can only be likened to the propaganda used by hate groups to attract impressionable people to their cause. Yet again your wall of text completely misses the point.

This simply makes it appear that you are closer to being the thing you hate and spend so much time railing against.

You know what...almost any criticism about Islam is bigotry in your parts.
It seems like you are actually afraid of yourselves and Muslims more that anyone else....I hear so much this "this will make them more radical" or that is "fearmongering" or "bigotry hate spreading".
Then somehow many imagine that opposing this puts them on the higher moral grounds by default...

Fearmongering -some people may analyze some situations not to your liking , often use logical and intellectual methods and come up with scary results not to the liking of your camp therefore islamophobic...
No body likes to be a chicken or be labeled with some mental disseize...

One thing is sure , politicians on both sides are harvesting on this issue.

In may opinion there is a problem with in Muslim culture if you agree please don't hate them or put in concentration camps...
Who knows maybe some open criticism will help in dealing with extremism because their communities will try harder...

[Jimbuna]

^+1 Most definitely.

[Oberon]

Or, the next best option is to use the ignore option. There's just too much anger around these days, and if it effects you to the point of exacerbating an already existing condition then your best option is to just walk away, don't waste your breath on those who you cannot reach. There are certain people who will never change their viewpoint, and they will just keep on repeating the same things, linking to the same sites, the same videos by the same person, and sadly they will convert other people to their cause and so on and so forth. Hatred and anger are much easier tools to work with than tolerance and understanding, which is why the likes of ISIL have grown so much whilst peaceful and tolerant Muslims are ignored by the majority in favour of focusing on those who do despicable acts.
It's a cycle of hatred, and I've grown very tired of trying to break it.