Go Wafa Sultan!

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Sixpack

It's like saying 'Freedom' (what Dubiya wants to spread) equals the freedom of your neighboor to worship Satan, and the other neighboor to have homosexual orgies in the house next to yours and corrupt your children. In other words: Total lawlessness and immorality.

Hmm you seem to be saying that freedom doesn't include the freedom to practice the religion or sexual orientation of your choice. As long as my neighbour's excercise of those freedoms don't infringe on mine then I really don't see a problem there... why do you care who your neighbour sleeps with or worships? I don't even know my neighbours, nor have any wish to... let alone care about such trifles.

As a matter of fact I'd much rather have a satan worshipper for a neighbour than a Jehovah's Witness, as the former aren't known for knocking on doors at 9 am to try and convert you.

Editted to ask if you have any evidence to back up your assertion that worshipping Satan or engaging in homosexual orgies leads to "total lawlessness and immorality"?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

As a matter of fact I'd much rather have a satan worshipper for a neighbour than a Jehovah's Witness, as the former aren't known for knocking on doors at 9 am to try and convert you.

It's the 6AM JW variety that would have me in a tiffy.

[Sixpack]

Hi Scandium,

You pose exactly the question and statement that proves why human beings will never be able to sort their stuff out; it no doubt will remain that way until a meteor hits us or something like that

I did -I think clearly- state satanism and sexual perversion next door are but a few exemples of where unlimited personal freedom (free for all) and lack of moral context (atheism too) can lead to...

I can understand this will not persuade faithful muslims to embrace our idea and reality of freedom. Try to imagine the perception of the average muslim regarding our part of the world. I am only referring to the moderates ofcourse because I have no sympathy for the radicals who only seek to establish political power through Islam.

Can't you understand ? Or do you actually think they are ignorant, backward and immoral when they are not eager (understatement) to allow this stuff in their direct environment ?

If I allow myself (and what's stopping me? to put it very simple and basic imo the free west has gone over the top whereas the islamic world has fallen behind and has catching up to do. I think we should meet somewhere in the middle. Now that sounds very 'Dutch' to my own surprise

[jumpy]

Wafa Sultan: Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me. You are free to worship whoever you want, but other people's beliefs are not your concern, whether they believe that the Messiah is God, son of Mary, or that Satan is God, son of Mary. Let people have their beliefs.

How very true.... some people could learn alot from this.
Personally I think religion is a uniquely human conceit - the implications of this are obvious to any who are willing to look.
But as far as I'm concerned you don't need religion to tell you not to rape children or murder your neighbours or steal or covet your neighbours ass (read that last one any way you choose ).
It's just plain old common decency - I have no confusion over this. Sadly many religions seem to be plagued with such confusions; what with the raping and murdering and proselytizing and expropriation, all in gods name.

There is no

Originally Posted by Sixpack

The mortals will learn the truth (primarily about themselves) in the hereafter...

That I am sure of.

I have all the 'truth' I need right here and now, thankyou.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Sixpack

I can understand this will not persuade faithful muslims to embrace our idea and reality of freedom. Try to imagine the perception of the average muslim regarding our part of the world. I am only referring to the moderates ofcourse because I have no sympathy for the radicals who only seek to establish political power through Islam.

I wouldn't say we were any more persausive when we tried the "Christian" approach with the Crusades.

Nor were we any more persuasive of the virtues of our freedom and democracy when we began colonising them during the more "moral" times of the late 19th and early 20th century (before our Western democracies became tainted by our hedonistic modern day lifestyle). Some relevant quotes from and about that latter part of this period:

"Winston Churchill, as colonial secretary, was sensitive to the cost of policing the Empire; and was in consequence keen to exploit the potential of modern technology. This strategy had particular relevance to operations in Iraq...

Churchill was in no doubt that gas could be profitably employed against the Kurds and Iraqis (as well as against other peoples in the Empire): *I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes.*...

... In the event, gas was used against the Iraqi rebels with excellent moral effect* "

"Today in 1993 there are still Iraqis and Kurds who remember being bombed and machine-gunned by the RAF in the 1920s... In the same vein, Squadron-Leader Kendal of 30 Squadron recalls that if the tribespeople were doing something they ought not be doing then you shot them.

Similarly, Wing-Commander Gale, also of 30 Squadron: *If the Kurds hadn't learned by our example to behave themselves in a civilised way then we had to spank their bottoms. This was done by bombs and guns."

Source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHU407A.html

I think Western morality and their perception of it likely has less to do with the ongoing culture conflict than our history of meddling in their society with the sword, the gun, or the bomb. All the while remaining completely ignorant of their culture or the long-term effect this type of interaction would have on them.

I can't condone or accept their present day militant Islamic movements but I can appreciate the fact that at no time in our history have we ever shown ourselves to them to be a society worthy of emulating. Clearly they reject our lifestyle and I can't say I blame them: McDonald's and Coke aren't much of a salve for festering wounds created through repression and exploitation.

So it has absolutely nothing to do with our moden day lifestyle and much to do with their misfortune to be situated on a resource as precious to us as gold, while at the same time being so different from us as that we've treated them, to this day, as uncivilized animals.

Regardless of how anyone views their culture and whether or not you think their ways barbaric, the fact is if you repeatedly kick a dog one shouldn't be surprised if one day it turns on you and tears your head off. That day seems to be close at hand and I for one am not very surprised by it.

Can't you understand ? Or do you actually think they are ignorant, backward and immoral when they are not eager (understatement) to allow this stuff in their direct environment ?

If I allow myself (and what's stopping me? to put it very simple and basic imo the free west has gone over the top whereas the islamic world has fallen behind and has catching up to do. I think we should meet somewhere in the middle. Now that sounds very 'Dutch' to my own surprise

I actually have a hard time, as I suspect many other Westerners with only limited contact with the Muslim world have, of understanding their culture. This is despite academic trainining in sociology and (to a lesser extent) anthropology, and trying to keep abreast of events in the middle east and learn more of their societies. Their ways are not our ways and they don't seem to be a society we can convert to our way of life, at least not at the point of a gun nor by installing pro-Western puppet dictators, whch about sums up our attempts to date.

At the same time we will not cease meddling in their affairs until we've pumped the last drop of oil out of the sands that it is economically feasible to; and even then, having at times armed and trained them, and provided the battlegrounds to learn the weakness of Western armies, we will not have the luxury of sitting back and letting them do their thing while we go on about ours. Nor, being as dependent as we are on their oilfields, will we turn the middle east into the radioactive wasteland that the extremists on our side would like to see it. At least not as long as we can exploit it.

So there it is. I see no solutions, only problems and inevitably more conflict and bloodshed on all sides. The cynic in me even believes that our creation of Israel had less to do with Western conscience, and rather more to do with installing an acceptable (to us) and useful wedge into the epicentre of the Middle East that would guarantee us a useful pretext, as well as a truly pro-Western ally, for continuing influence and intervention in the region for generations to come. And the genius of this wedge is that its (Israel) every bit as ideologically driven in its firm belief of entitlement to its lands as the Arabs in the region are to their exclusive claim on it.

[Sixpack]

Originally Posted by jumpy

I have all the 'truth' I need right here and now, thankyou.

Consider it a bonus. What do I care ? Do you actually think I actually give one crap for your afterlife ?! LOL you folks really are silly sometimes :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Sixpack]

Scandium, indeed it is rather surprising considering your background you seem to have a hard time pushing through to a level of deeper understanding, and thereby revealing the gap between 'ME' and West.

I however seem more critical and objective than you (am I?) toward the western culture and I can in fact see valuable stuff in their culture which we have disposed of for the sake of liberty (free for all). Only 40 years ago we had a lot more in common with these people. Were our parents in those days brought up in backward circumstances ? (Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt want to trade places with them, but I am a guy who can handle himself today unlike the 'Jackasses' all around; see other thread)

Our west is concentrated on minorities: The freakier the better. Have a look at all the media garbage. That superficial Beckham dude is worshipped as a halfGod and the list goes on and on. Speaks volumes on the advanced culture we live in...

[jumpy]

Originally Posted by Sixpack

/snip
Consider it a bonus

Maybe there's something lost in translation there, Sixpack...
Were you writing from a personal standpoint or looking at the position from that of one (other) who believes that non believers will see the 'truth' in their eventual demise?
Why is it silly? Please explain.
For me I have always viewed the oppinons of 'I believe and you don't, therefore you deserve my pitty/patience/time to convert you' with a certain amount of chafing acceptance that religious types will always be that way towards non believers; it's kindof insulting that I can accept those who want religion, yet they seem convinced that I need to be shown the error of my ways...

other people's beliefs are not your concern

- this is not directed specifically at you, Sixpack, the same as my previous post, it's an example given the topic and tone of discussion. Your quote was merely an obvious signpost to illustrate what I wanted to say/contribute here.

You have a point (to a degree) about the media feeding frenzy: that "superficial beckham dude" etc. But most sensible folk see that for what it is- BS. Like much of dogmatic religion when you get right down to the nitty gritty of it.

[Sixpack]

Jumpy,

Glad you took it as a good sport.

I guess I am one of those people who can not be put in boxes. That means I have views and opinions that seem contradictary to most people. They get confused by it.

Yes, I can believe in a Godlike being and not be religious
Yes, I can have understanding for ME-culture yet condemn Islam
Yes, I can hate parts of western culture yet have a decent life here
Yes, I can be anti-Nazi yet enjoy Das Boot and SH3
ETC....

Dont make too much out of it.

All I am interested in here is to see people being critical, primarily at themselves (!). The result is 100% their own responsibility.

I would not force my beliefs on anyone here. Ofcourse not, how could I ?!If you'd think I do, I guess it's because you don't see the big grin on my mug behind my PC I am primarily here to have some fun, you know. never mind the semi-intellectual bogus I sometimes vent

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Sixpack

So I stand by my earlier remarks that this interview has been an utter waste of time

As your (our) remarks?

[Sixpack]

Come again ? I dont understand the question

[Fish]

Well, ask yourself, if here interview was a waste of time, what are we (you) doing here? :hmm:

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Fish

Well, ask yourself, if here interview was a waste of time, what are we (you) doing here? :hmm:

Because when I beckon you come.

[Sixpack]

Originally Posted by Fish

Well, ask yourself, if here interview was a waste of time, what are we (you) doing here? :hmm:

Granted, her interview has lead to this thread. Was it a waste of time as well ? Probably

[jumpy]

@ Sixpack, that's alright, chap

hehe can ... worms ... open ... all over the place
Aah, the pitfalls of internet fora - the emoticon just doesn't do justice to the sentiment
Trust me when I say if I took all of this seriously *waves hand in vgue jesture at subsim board* I'd probably be out there with a plackard declaring 'the end is nigh' or some such, either that or I'd be out recruiting for the revolution not chatting with you guys here :hmm:

following the last couple of posts I can see we're gradually getting to the 'all human endevour is pointless' discussion, which is also pointless :rotfl: