Readying ASM and Bomb 6 hr?

[kilorocky]

Originally Posted by emsoy

Markus, I hear what you're saying and it is our intention to add quick-turnaround.

But there is no way a combat aircraft can fly 40 combat sorties in a row with 30 min turnaround. Or 10. Or 5. The latter have been achieved, but only a handful times by just a few pilots. So its not something we'll base an air ops model on.

Flying a combat mission is like running a marathon. Pilots and aircraft need to rest. They can do about one per day sustained, 2 per day during surge (which is an impressive achievement - try running 85km per day for 5 days straight!), in very rare cases 3, and almost never as many as 5. The latter happens once or twice in extreme cases during a war, which is not often with 10 000+ sorties flown.

sorry to interrupt, and I hate to point out that it sounds bureaucracy to me.

it's more like the officer saying, hey, my pilot will get tired, and you should not fly a second round right now, have to wait for 6 hour interval.

Again, I think the right way to do it is to calculate the fatigue of the pilot and crew, as well as the mechanical failure rate accumulated by frequent action. ie. 24 AC in the beginning, and after the first round 1 is grounded due to failure. Then when it comes to 4 intensive mission within 24 hours, 18 of then will be grounded for different reasons and ready time will vary from the reason.

Different aircraft has different ready and maintenance time. It depends on basic design, proficiency of the crew, mechanical and electronic failure rate, in flight damages, plus some factors accumulated in high intensive mission.

You guys are pro, and I believe you have the right formula to calculate the real readiness of AC in combat.

[mapuc]

10 Minuit 20 Minuit a.s.o that is a short time I agree, but 6 hour !? just to load some weapon, fuel and give the pilot or pilots some information about the next target.(here I'm talking about aircraft with no problem what so ever)

Why not make some kind of time of repair in the game

e.g

4 of your F35 has returned from a mission(which you have planned) after they have landed you get information that 2 of your F35 has a damage(or while they are in the air heading for home)

1. Engine damage
2. Damage to some part of the plane(probably a hit from AAA)

The game could then make some time to when these repair is done and the aircraft can be put into action again. Just an idea

And I'm talking about aircraft-Fighter jets

What I wrote about the Swedish Fighter Jet JAS39 is real time. This is the time the technician and these conscript need to refuel, rearm or reload this fighter jet.
Of course if the plane got a damage or something, additional time has to been added

To get a warship ready that takes time a lot of time(depending on its status when the war started)

Realistic game...when will we ever get that????

It's a great game indeed but realistic When

Here's a example and there's plenty of them

I had 4 F18 (2+2) AMRAAM Heavy their mission was to protect two other groups with Air to ground loadout.

They encountet a group of two MIG29
I USED every AMRAAM on these two MIG's NONE of them hit their target
Then one of the MIG fired 4 of his missile and killed 3 of mine F18

And so it goes in almost EVERY scenario where there's Russian Fighter in it

So don't tell me about realistic game.

Yesterday I played for few hours (Fill the Gap) same here lots and lots of Air to Air missile against Russian fighters and Russian Bombers (had to use about 6-8 missile on each target)

Then These Russian Bombers fired all their ASM against my CVBG. MY CVBG fired almost every SAM2 they had and some more SAM and none of the ASM was hit 4 of my ship was hit.

I like Command and I'm not new to this warfaresim.

Edit forgot two thing

The fatigue of an pilot- Of course a pilot get tired after so and so many hours in the air and on high concentration all the time. What I know most countries have more than 1 pilot per aircraft. Sweden has about 3-4 pilot to each JAS39.

Ready time, planning and other things
Again I say: The planning is MY the players job NOT the in-game-crew

Markus

[emsoy]

Originally Posted by mapuc

10 Minuit 20 Minuit a.s.o that is a short time I agree, but 6 hour !? just to load some weapon, fuel and give the pilot or pilots some information about the next target.(here I'm talking about aircraft with no problem what so ever)

Why not make some kind of time of repair in the game

e.g

4 of your F35 has returned from a mission(which you have planned) after they have landed you get information that 2 of your F35 has a damage(or while they are in the air heading for home)

1. Engine damage
2. Damage to some part of the plane(probably a hit from AAA)

The game could then make some time to when these repair is done and the aircraft can be put into action again. Just an idea

And I'm talking about aircraft-Fighter jets

What I wrote about the Swedish Fighter Jet JAS39 is real time. This is the time the technician and these conscript need to refuel, rearm or reload this fighter jet.
Of course if the plane got a damage or something, additional time has to been added

To get a warship ready that takes time a lot of time(depending on its status when the war started)

Realistic game...when will we ever get that????

Please see my above post. I'd eally appreciate more hard info on the JAS 39 operations, including the number of sorties generated over time. I.e. during the first 24 hours, during the whole surge ops period (which usually lasts a maximum of 5-6 days) and during sustained ops. I'm afraid the tiny bits of info you've given us so far really isn't enough to validate or disprove the model. Sorry!

Originally Posted by mapuc

It's a great game indeed but realistic When

Here's a example and there's plenty of them

I had 4 F18 (2+2) AMRAAM Heavy their mission was to protect two other groups with Air to ground loadout.

They encountet a group of two MIG29
I USED every AMRAAM on these two MIG's NONE of them hit their target
Then one of the MIG fired 4 of his missile and killed 3 of mine F18

Okay it's impossible to determine what happened without a savegame or a message log. Could be your side had a bad day, and the enemy an extremely lucky one. Or there could be a problem.

Also, what version/build are you using? The latest version (B553 or B554) has a number of improvemets on decoy and DECM handling over 1.03 so recommend checking it out if you're not running it already.

Originally Posted by mapuc

And so it goes in almost EVERY scenario where there's Russian Fighter in it

So don't tell me about realistic game.

Yesterday I played for few hours (Fill the Gap) same here lots and lots of Air to Air missile against Russian fighters and Russian Bombers (had to use about 6-8 missile on each target)

Then These Russian Bombers fired all their ASM against my CVBG. MY CVBG fired almost every SAM2 they had and some more SAM and none of the ASM was hit 4 of my ship was hit.

That sounds... weird... can you post a savegame? And again, what version of the sim are you using? B553/554 has a number of fixes to both seeker logics and mid-course guidance logics, but also introduces PoK speed modifiers for anti-ship missiles. Fast missiles will be difficult if not impossible to hit by older, less capable anti-air systems.

And what was the ECM environment like?

Originally Posted by mapuc

I like Command and I'm not new to this warfaresim.

Edit forgot two thing

The fatigue of an pilot- Of course a pilot get tired after so and so many hours in the air and on high concentration all the time. What I know most countries have more than 1 pilot per aircraft. Sweden has about 3-4 pilot to each JAS39.

Ready time, planning and other things
Again I say: The planning is MY the players job NOT the in-game-crew

Markus

No problem, but we need more hard facts. Sorry.

[kilorocky]

I know someone, who's perfect to answer all these question. My grandpa served in China Air Force from 1931-1949, ended up as CO of Nanchang AB. His whole history is engineer readying and repairing AC, especially during China-Japan War and WWII.

But he passed away years ago, and everything that has to do with the air force history has been burned or destroyed when the communists took over. No photo, no memoir, only a letter of "confession". The only legacy is an ancient metal model of P-40.

I have bought a book on the AC readiness years ago, written by the PLAAF Academy or so and published by Chinese Defense Industry. There were quite a lot of function and formula describing this issue. However, I don't dare to present these pages.

[kilorocky]

Have you guys referred to this:

http://www.cna.org/research/1998/sor...arked-airwings

I guess it's quite convincing covering this issue

Sortie Generation Capacity of Embarked Airwings

Published Date: December 1, 1998

The Naval Strike and Warfare Center asked the Center for Naval Analyses to help evaluate and analyze carrier and air wing sortie-generation capacity. Specifically, we set out to determine the firepower capacity of an embarked air wing, the factors that constrain the sortie-generation capacity, and ways to enhance the fire power capacity. In this paper, we create a base case focusing on the three major requirements of the creation of sea-based air power: the aircraft must be mission capable, the aircrew must be able to fly the aircraft, and the flight deck crews must ready aircraft for flight, launch aircraft, and recover aircraft after the completion of their missions. Our estimates of the capacity of the airframes, the aircrew, and the carrier and air wing's ability to launch, recover, and ready aircraft for launch rely on the characteristics of the base case.

[mapuc]

I have a few very simple questions

Is Command:
1. A Computer Vs Computer game ?(you know a game where you the player are only watching as the Computer play against it self)

2. A Player Vs Computer game ?

3. A combination of both

Just simple yes or no will do.

Markus

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by kilorocky

Have you guys referred to this:

http://www.cna.org/research/1998/sor...arked-airwings

I guess it's quite convincing covering this issue

Sortie Generation Capacity of Embarked Airwings

Published Date: December 1, 1998

The Naval Strike and Warfare Center asked the Center for Naval Analyses to help evaluate and analyze carrier and air wing sortie-generation capacity. Specifically, we set out to determine the firepower capacity of an embarked air wing, the factors that constrain the sortie-generation capacity, and ways to enhance the fire power capacity. In this paper, we create a base case focusing on the three major requirements of the creation of sea-based air power: the aircraft must be mission capable, the aircrew must be able to fly the aircraft, and the flight deck crews must ready aircraft for flight, launch aircraft, and recover aircraft after the completion of their missions. Our estimates of the capacity of the airframes, the aircrew, and the carrier and air wing's ability to launch, recover, and ready aircraft for launch rely on the characteristics of the base case.

The PDF-fil is somehow broken, that's the message I get.

Markus

[kilorocky]

Originally Posted by mapuc

The PDF-fil is somehow broken, that's the message I get.

Markus

Hmmm
google “Sortie Generation Capacity of Embarked Airwings”
and you will get it right

[emsoy]

Originally Posted by kilorocky

sorry to interrupt, and I hate to point out that it sounds bureaucracy to me.

it's more like the officer saying, hey, my pilot will get tired, and you should not fly a second round right now, have to wait for 6 hour interval.

Again, I think the right way to do it is to calculate the fatigue of the pilot and crew, as well as the mechanical failure rate accumulated by frequent action. ie. 24 AC in the beginning, and after the first round 1 is grounded due to failure. Then when it comes to 4 intensive mission within 24 hours, 18 of then will be grounded for different reasons and ready time will vary from the reason.

Different aircraft has different ready and maintenance time. It depends on basic design, proficiency of the crew, mechanical and electronic failure rate, in flight damages, plus some factors accumulated in high intensive mission.

You guys are pro, and I believe you have the right formula to calculate the real readiness of AC in combat.

Like I said, we're planning a 'quick turnaround' option to cover the (rather rare) real-life cases where planes fly a (limited) number of combat sorties in quick succession. This will be scenario configurable (by the scenario authors, as this doesn't make sense in most scenarios) and to a certain extent also be configurable by the player.

Guess we'll also have to write an updated 'Aircraft Ready Times' article that explains things in even greater detail. Bureaucracy has nothing to do with it. I guess the main problem is that, in Command, the planes appear to just be 'sitting idle' while the clock ticks down from 6 hours or whatever. That 6 hr figure, however, covers the gazillion different reasons why sortie rates are as low as they are in real life.

Look, we've researched this topic to death for the last 20 years. The figures in Command haven't been taken out of thin air, and have been validated by men flying the real deal. Some for more than 25 years. So if you want to re-discuss this issue (for the n-th time) I'd very much appreciate if you could post up hard figures (with links to sources) so that we can compare that with the information we already have.

Thanks!