“We gave you three days to recant but you insist on not returning to Islam"

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by August

God is not there to protect us. If he did what would be the point of our existence? Better to not have created us in the first place if all we are is puppets on a celestial string.

No, I believe God gave us the most precious gifts that any father can give his children. Freedom and trust. Trust that we'll use our freedom for good instead of evil. Kind of like the first time your father handed you the keys to his car, we are at the wheel of our own destiny so to speak. Yeah we might get hurt but that imo is far better than a completely sheltered life with no free will.

Yet the bible is full of verses that proclaim Gods protection.

It's sort of like so many of my friends post memes on FB that everything that happens to you is part of his plan and will. When I ask how a child being brutally raped is part of a plan, then it's just God is a mystery. My biggest issue is watching so many claim prayers answered or lil miracles, such as a raise, mortgage refinanced, new job, healing {under a doctors care of course} and a big PTL. It makes God seem so trife when you know millions of children suffer and die each year with mothers praying their hearts out and God turns a blind eye, yet can find time to give someone a raise. I wonder how someone feels that just lost a child to cancer seeing someone else claiming God found them a new car. Americans make God so generic and self serving.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Yet the bible is full of verses that proclaim Gods protection.

It's sort of like so many of my friends post memes on FB that everything that happens to you is part of his plan and will. When I ask how a child being brutally raped is part of a plan, then it's just God is a mystery. My biggest issue is watching so many claim prayers answered or lil miracles, such as a raise, mortgage refinanced, new job, healing {under a doctors care of course} and a big PTL. It makes God seem so trife when you know millions of children suffer and die each year with mothers praying their hearts out and God turns a blind eye, yet can find time to give someone a raise. I wonder how someone feels that just lost a child to cancer seeing someone else claiming God found them a new car. Americans make God so generic and self serving.

Great post

[Skybird]

Any god there is cannot be a god if it cares for man or listens to prayers. Prayers are deals tiny little men want to enforce onto an entity they claim is unbelievably above them. If that were true, why should it care, then? I do not care whether I stepped onto an ant while walking in the woods, or not. And never I would start trying to discuss my life plan with it. Prayers are man's way to try bribing fate and get recognised as playing a more central role in the universe, than we actually do. We think that if we spell the magical formula right, beside its irrelevance it nevertheless would make the universe moving differently and bending nature's law. But it does not work this way. The causal link people want to see, is just a random event.

If you watch at the cosmos, at least as far as we can gather it, it is a spectacular but lifeless, desolate place that has its beauty only by what humans attribute to it. So is nature - it just does not care for man, not at all. Without humans, things are still just what they are. Many questions we may yell in frustration at this cosmos, but it never gives an answer in return. The only thing we hear is the voice of our own imagination, and the only truth is that which we have attributed to it by ourselves.

That's why I think the only way for us to find some peace of mind, is by listening into the space within ourselves, and trying to find out in what way it may be linked to the space around us. Whether the world outside really is like our senses tell us, is questionable, the only thing we can be certain of, is the undeniable fact that we are undergoing the process of witnessing.

[CaptainHaplo]

My how the subject has changed.... Still, a couple of notes...

First of all - yes, Christianity is a religion. If it wasn't, please tell all the Christian churches to give up their tax free status because they are religious entities....

Second, what is so often lost when it comes to issues of faith is that there is a huge difference between a religious belief system defined (and redefined) by men and a spiritual communion with Deity.

The thing is, Islamic "extremists" are those that take their belief system as literally as possible and do their very best to hold to it. The religious system itself is being followed by the extremists. Compare that to Christianity, where the "extremists" are those who choose simply do not choose to recognize or accept "sinful acts" of others, such as homosexuality. While both religious structures hold the acts as abominations, Islam calls for the execution of the homosexual, while Christianity has moderated from stoning the person to hating the action while loving the person. Where Islam calls for the killing of those who leave Islam, Christianity moved away from calling for death to the apostate. It is an interesting case study that "extremists" in one religion are the moderates in another, is it not?

As for asking how God could "allow" this or that, there are so many numerous theories on the why it would take months to discuss them all. Personally, I am at peace with the actions of God, and thus am not driven to question them beyond what I have already done. Still, I understand and respect that not everyone can have - or accept - the answer I have. Others will have different answers, and some will have no answer at all.

[Wolferz]

Nice analogy, Haplo.

In a nutshell, religion and faith in a supreme being is in the mind of the beholder. Many people need it to stave off the depression and hopelessness that would be caused by the answer to the age old questions...
"Is this all there is?"
"Do we just cease to exist when we die?"

From scientific studies we know that there is more out there just waiting to be discovered. Much more.
The answer to question number two is far more elusive and won't be answered until we experience the death of these physical biological robots we run around in.

I'd like to think that I am much more than the sum of these atoms that this physical body is made of. That idea requires faith in something greater than scientific proof.
Everything about religion is a made up construct by men who were possibly mentally ill.
"If you talk to God you're religious"
"If God talks to you you're a nutter"

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Nice analogy, Haplo.

In a nutshell, religion and faith in a supreme being is in the mind of the beholder. Many people need it to stave off the depression and hopelessness that would be caused by the answer to the age old questions...
"Is this all there is?"
"Do we just cease to exist when we die?"

From scientific studies we know that there is more out there just waiting to be discovered. Much more.
The answer to question number two is far more elusive and won't be answered until we experience the death of these physical biological robots we run around in.

Scientifically speaking, we do not cease to exist when we die. We are, if you break it down, more energy than we are matter. Energy - at least as we understand it - cannot be created or destroyed. It merely changes form. (See the Law of Conservation of Energy). Thus we will exist, though science can not say whether our consciousness will do so - simply because science has not been able to truly understand what consciousness IS.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Scientifically speaking, we do not cease to exist when we die. We are, if you break it down, more energy than we are matter. Energy - at least as we understand it - cannot be created or destroyed. It merely changes form. (See the Law of Conservation of Energy).

That's also true of a fire, the light from a lamp, or any other form of energy, or matter. The energy from the fire goes somewere else, as a different form of energy. That doesn't mean it's still a fire when it does so.

Thus we will exist, though science can not say whether our consciousness will do so - simply because science has not been able to truly understand what consciousness IS.

That is absolutely true, and that is the nature of all things scientific. On the other hand religious sources have claimed since the beginning of religious writing to know absolutely that there is a soul that is separate from the body, all without any evidence other than the claim that it is so.

It's easy to dismiss science for not having a particular answer, but claiming the existence of something because science can't disprove it borders on deception in the sleight-of-hand category. Science can't disprove the existence of a separate concsiousness, or soul. Science can't disprove the existence of God. Science also can't disprove the existence of Bertrand Russel's Cosmic Teapot, or, as I like to say, the existence of little blue bug-eyed men from Atlantis living in the oceans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

To summarize: Science has shown that energy changes form, but does not cease to exist. Science has also show that energy and matter are interchangeable, so that combining oxygen and certain materiels and applying an external energy source can cause combustion. Science has further shown that the matter consumed in the combustion takes on a different form of matter or energy.

What science has not shown is that any given part of the matter or energy continues on in the same state, or at least enough to support the claim that the matter or energy will continue to exist in the same state for all eternity. No, there is no proof that the consciousness or soul cannot continue on after death, but there is no reason at all to believe it will other than the desire for it to be so. Do people believe this because religious writings claim that God has revealed this to certain people and they wrote it down, or was it written down because people wanted to believe it?

I don't claim to have an answer, but those who do claim to have an answer don't believe in the existence of certain concepts because those concepts can't be disproven. They use the fact that they can't be disproven to support their beliefs. That is about as unscientific as one can get, not to mention unreasonable and irrational. And, to me anyway, a little dishonest.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

The thing is, Islamic "extremists" are those that take their belief system as literally as possible and do their very best to hold to it. The religious system itself is being followed by the extremists. Compare that to Christianity, where the "extremists" are those who choose simply do not choose to recognize or accept "sinful acts" of others, such as homosexuality. While both religious structures hold the acts as abominations, Islam calls for the execution of the homosexual, while Christianity has moderated from stoning the person to hating the action while loving the person. Where Islam calls for the killing of those who leave Islam, Christianity moved away from calling for death to the apostate. It is an interesting case study that "extremists" in one religion are the moderates in another, is it not?

While it's true that Christianity has mellowed with time, I have to wonder how much of that was voluntary and how much was due to the growing influence of the Enlightenment. Not claiming, merely wondering. I enjoy exploring the causes, though I know I'll never have a real answer. Did Christianity reform on its own or was it forced to by reasonable people objecting to religious squabling in the civilized world? Probably some of both, because there are reasonable people everywhere, and if they're not shouted down or intimidated by unreasonable people they do have an influence.

I'm reminded of what I was once told is an old Hindu saying: "No God should ever be judged by the sort of people who claim to worship him."

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Did Christianity reform on its own or was it forced to by reasonable people objecting to religious squabling in the civilized world? Probably some of both, because there are reasonable people everywhere, and if they're not shouted down or intimidated by unreasonable people they do have an influence.

Here lies one major concern I have regarding Islam. In contrast with the general historical awareness, even recognition of the manner in which the scriptures were gathered in Christianity, which made criticism of the texts possible, there seems to be little corresponding recognition in Islam. After all, it was a Roman emperor who ordered that an authoritative biblical text be put together. There was never a pristine original copy of the Bible to adhere to, and the essence of the faith was defined by synods and in creeds.

In the case of Islam, we have a sacred immovable text, so perfect and unamendable that only the original classical Arabic is considered valid for the practice of true Islam. (Which in turn has produced arguments regarding the perfection of classical Arabic.) This absolutism at the level of the Koran itself, is the key obstacle to the modernization of the faith as practiced and is what always threatens a return to its worst forms at any time.

I perceive it as sort of a 'Dale Carnegie' one-upsmanship, making its absolutism more influential and so taking it to the next and now impossible level. Perhaps it was a ploy at the time to make it more competitive with the well established Jewish and Christian faiths in the area. But its consequences are nasty.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

In the case of Islam, we have a sacred immovable text, so perfect and unamendable that only the original classical Arabic is considered valid for the practice of true Islam. (Which in turn has produced arguments regarding the perfection of classical Arabic.) This absolutism at the level of the Koran itself, is the key obstacle to the modernization of the faith as practiced and is what always threatens a return to its worst forms at any time.

I need to be hairsplitting here. There HAVE been various versions of the Quran circulating after Muhammad'S death,. local leaders payed a caste of scripture interpreter - in other words: bribed them - to interpret it in a menaing that was "helpful" for the rulers'S interest. From this, a fragmation of the transcripts of Muhammad's preachings took place, while the original copies once should have been given to Muhammad'S wife which can be doubted and indeed is discussed). Not before the second or third Caliph, the man ordered that the final version of the Quran should be extracted from these versions.

Later, with the implementation of a dramatic change in written Arabic that according to linguists has fundamentally changed the meaning of at least one quarter, more likely one half, possibly even three quarters of the words in written Arabic, it became even more difficult.

The Quran today may be whatever it is, but one thing it is not: authentic. The Arabic language it now exists in, did not exist at Muhammad's time. Of course, saying so is seen as heresy, and I have just earned myself another death sentence, I fear. To decide what the Quran indeed means or oroiginally wants to say, one must comparew it to the general biography of Muhammad and copare it to the ddeds and actions of the man. The Quran is not the word of God, but the words of Muhammad, who used the founding of his religion to silence opposition and increase influence. And Muhammad was anything but a peace-loving man of modesty. He was a war leader, bandit and conquerer. And the Quran reflects that mindset. And here I just earned myself another death sentence...

It's long ago that I learned all this stuff, details are escaping my memory, I fear. But in general what I wrote above is the essence. I explained all that in much more detail in much longer posts several years ago

The superstitious mindset of true Muslims of course does not worry for these self-contradictions, these and several others. Its all miracle done by Allah. Simplistic answers from simplistic minds. The standard recipe for dealing with criticism, is to call critics infidels and heretics, and kill them if they cannot be made to submit to Islam. Like this woman now.

[August]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Yet the bible is full of verses that proclaim Gods protection.

There are a lot of claims. You just have to ask yourself if you worship God or worship a book written by men.

Then there is the matter of what God is supposed to protect. Soul, life property or something else.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by August

There are a lot of claims. You just have to ask yourself if you worship God or worship a book written by men.

Then there is the matter of what God is supposed to protect. Soul, life property or something else.

The bible has verses that cover all of those.... or we can wrap it all up in one..."Whatever ye ask"

I think most Christians accept that the bible is the final and only revelation to man to know how to worship God. Myself, I don' like the idea that all loving just beings have such an ego that they demand you worship them. Sounds more man made to me..

I still debate some in Christian forums. Right now debating Noah's flood. It's amazing the logic people can come up with to believe in such lore.

[u crank]

I used to say I believe there is a God and go from there. I now say, if there is a God and then discuss it. Since it can't/hasn't been proven either way I think, to me anyway, that it's a reasonable stance. And if there is a God I think he wouldn't expect any more than that in light of the proof he has given for His existence. He may have reasons...

Originally Posted by Armistead

Myself, I don' like the idea that all loving just beings have such an ego that they demand you worship them. Sounds more man made to me..

I agree. It does sound like what men want all the time. A far more likely thing that God would want is for man to try to understand his creation through logic and science and do his best to preserve, protect and improve it. Oh yea and that whole love thing to.

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by OP

Sudan on Thursday sentenced a 27-year-old mother to hang for apostasy when she refused to renounce her family and the Christian faith in which she was raised. She is also to receive 100 lashes for adultery beforehand

I'm glad all of you have it all figured out about how this poor ladies immediate problems of having faith in Jesus Christ as her Lord and savior is her real problem.

Most, but not all of you have debunked her faith and said in effect that she has no right to resist the Muslim/Islam practices of demanding she follow their god of Islam with the punishment of death for her sin against them.

Throwing rocks is all your doing ... All of you accept for maybe August would be let go if caught with a bible in their country.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

I'm glad all of you have it all figured out about how this poor ladies immediate problems of having faith in Jesus Christ as her Lord and savior is her real problem.

You take everyone to task, but you misquote the Original Post. Feuer Frei said how wrong he thought it was, but you repost his link to the article and attribute the quote to him. The discussion has wandered, certainly, but can you show anyone who said that her faith is her real problem?

Most, but not all of you have debunked her faith and said in effect that she has no right to resist the Muslim/Islam practices of demanding she follow their god of Islam with the punishment of death for her sin against them.

People are arguing against faith in general, but you specifically accuse them of debunking her faith. And who specifically has said she has no right to resist the Muslims? Anyone?

Throwing rocks is all your doing ... All of you accept for maybe August would be let go if caught with a bible in their country.

Who specifically is throwing rocks, and at whom? Again, the discussion has been derailed into yet another "Faith vs Reason" argument, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the OP. Blame us for wandering off-topic all you want, but what you accuse us of has no basis at all except in your own mind.