“We gave you three days to recant but you insist on not returning to Islam"

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Yes, we can.

Of course but that doesn't mean it's accurate.

You make that distinction. Can you show any evidence of what you believe, outside what the Bible says?

He's talking about the Holy See I think.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

Of course but that doesn't mean it's accurate.

Very true, but it works both ways. All believers believe that their way is the truth, and everything else is a lie. None of them can prove it, so faith is all they have.

He's talking about the Holy See I think.

Would the Pope deny being a Christian? He may not fit a Protestant's definition, but he certainly considers himself a follower of Christ. Unless of course he's one of the many over the centuries who merely uses the position to further his own ends. But that is also true of many others who call themselves "Christian".

So who really has the truth? Please show me.

Back to the topic, yes we have Muslims killing Christians for refusing to renounce their faith. We have people killing people for a lot of reasons, none of them particularly good. At least we no longer have Christians killing Christians for refusing to renounce their faith.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Very true, but it works both ways. All believers believe that their way is the truth, and everything else is a lie. None of them can prove it, so faith is all they have.


Would the Pope deny being a Christian? He may not fit a Protestant's definition, but he certainly considers himself a follower of Christ. Unless of course he's one of the many over the centuries who merely uses the position to further his own ends. But that is also true of many others who call themselves "Christian".

So who really has the truth? Please show me.

Back to the topic, yes we have Muslims killing Christians for refusing to renounce their faith. We have people killing people for a lot of reasons, none of them particularly good. At least we no longer have Christians killing Christians for refusing to renounce their faith.

But Steve, the truth is there if you really really open your heart to it and discern the word.....All 1200 denominations and all the different major religions believe this.....all you have to do is pick one!

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Very true, but it works both ways. All believers believe that their way is the truth, and everything else is a lie. None of them can prove it, so faith is all they have.

We're not talking about faith, we're talking about identification and categorization of a subset of the many religions that worship the God of Abraham.

Would the Pope deny being a Christian? He may not fit a Protestant's definition, but he certainly considers himself a follower of Christ. Unless of course he's one of the many over the centuries who merely uses the position to further his own ends. But that is also true of many others who call themselves "Christian".

Maybe he would but it's the divine authority that Catholics believe the Pope possesses which Protestants take issue. It's a fundamental difference that makes lumping Catholicism in with the many Protestant sects debatable.

[TarJak]

So Christianity is a broad church?

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Very true, but it works both ways. All believers believe that their way is the truth, and everything else is a lie. None of them can prove it, so faith is all they have.


Would the Pope deny being a Christian? He may not fit a Protestant's definition, but he certainly considers himself a follower of Christ.

So who really has the truth? Please show me.

By your own words Steve you use to be a believer and now your aren't ...

You say you were wrong to believe and now you say you are right.

This doesn't mean the believers you left behind should follow your example ... we just simply continue to believe and add to our faith.

Truth is a spirit, truth is one of the seven spirits of God that stand before His throne both day and night: Revelations 4:5

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

and don't forget Jesus also has the truth: Revelations 5:6

The Lamb looked as if he had been killed. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God that were sent into all the world.

and of course the promise Jesus gives believers: St John 14:16-17

I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.
The world cannot accept him, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he lives with you and he will be in you.

I love you Steve I wish there was something I could say or do to return you to faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ,
but that is the work of the Holy Spirit.

If you do still pray ... pray for the Lord to show you the way. He never refuses a small sincere prayer of faith.

back on topic, yes ... What that poor woman must be going through ... only God can give her the strength she needs to overcome her adversary.

[Armistead]

I think Steve is a lot like me, once very involved in faith. I actually lost mine trying to find it. I think the problem is, many of us really test our faith and realize it's just that, beliefs with no real evidence and much evidence to the contrary. I think the only way to keep faith is to shun history, science and logic.

That's not saying I don't say God isn't possible, but it's clear beliefs are more cultural indoctrination. I can't find a reasonable God in any religion. You would think if God existed we would have a clear revelation so that in the end the masses aren't tortured for all eternity. Honestly, the God of he bible is so cruel, unjust, biased, etc., I would have to assume he is the creation or view of those early Jews.

Certainly religion played a needed role in early humanity in numerous ways. It helped explain then what science could not. No doubt even those religious have evolved, but the bigger question is when will we evolve out of the need of religion? My guess is most of the world isn't, because of lack of money and education. It's still the same, poor uneducated societies need religion to keep them from chaos.

[Wolferz]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I think Steve is a lot like me, once very involved in faith. I actually lost mine trying to find it. I think the problem is,

Snippage

Certainly religion played a needed role in early humanity in numerous ways. It helped explain then what science could not. No doubt even those religious have evolved, but the bigger question is when will we evolve out of the need of religion? My guess is most of the world isn't, because of lack of money and education. It's still the same, poor uneducated societies need religion to keep them from chaos.

How else would a religious leader keep the masses subservient to his so called God given power and prevent them from rising up against their sovereign rulers? By claiming their sheep are heretics and killing them?
That was tried over and over and it took a long time to realize it wasn't working...
Considering the hundreds of years time frame of it all, I guess they just enjoyed torturing and murdering the peasants for pleasure.
Funny thing is it's still a common occurrence today in certain religions.
The only difference being, now the peasants are just rosy cheeked choir boys or participants in the church sports league.
The early church was also active in suppressing scientific discoveries.
"Foosball is the devil, Bobby Bouchet!"

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

We're not talking about faith, we're talking about identification and categorization of a subset of the many religions that worship the God of Abraham.

We're also talking about people who claime to worship the God of Abraham, but who don't believe that Jesus is the chosen Messiah, or who don't worship that God at all. They too all claim to be right.

Maybe he would but it's the divine authority that Catholics believe the Pope possesses which Protestants take issue. It's a fundamental difference that makes lumping Catholicism in with the many Protestant sects debatable.

But many of those Protestant sects make the same claims about each other. That the Catholics and Protestants disagree about certain fundementals is only relevant if you belong to one group or the other. They both (all) claim to have the truth. That doesn't show which is actually right or wrong.

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

You say you were wrong to believe and now you say you are right.

You haven't read much of my writings. I don't claim to be right at all. My only claim parallels that of Socrates: All I know is that I know nothing. Knowing that my knowledge is that limited leaves me wanting evidence when someone else claims that they do know something. Many make that claim. I have yet to see any real evidence from any of them.

This doesn't mean the believers you left behind should follow your example ... we just simply continue to believe and add to our faith.

And I consider that a good thing. I just question you when you claim you know the object of your faith is real. Believing and knowing are two very different things.

Truth is a spirit, truth is one of the seven spirits of God that stand before His throne both day and night: Revelations 4:5
and don't forget Jesus also has the truth: Revelations 5:6

You speak of truth, and yet you quote a source that is unverifiable. You believe that source on its own merits, and you never question whether that belief, and the source, is valid or not. That's not truth, that's belief. I don't deny that your truth may be real, only that you haven't shown it.

and of course the promise Jesus gives believers: St John 14:16-17

Again a source you can't verify. That's the problem that led me to where I am in the first place. I came to realize that there is no evidence at all. Christians always quote the Bible, and yet there is nothing to corroborate it.

If you do still pray ... pray for the Lord to show you the way. He never refuses a small sincere prayer of faith.

I did, many times. That's how I got here.

back on topic, yes ... What that poor woman must be going through ... only God can give her the strength she needs to overcome her adversary.

If by some chance she is freed, Christians will say God was responsible. Muslims will say Allah was merciful. If she is not, Christians will say God had other plans and Muslims will say Allah was vindicated and she got what she deserved. Everyone will go on proclaiming their own rightness.

What I am certain of is that evil people (not all Muslims, but the individuals who are doing this) will go on committing evil and claiming they are doing good, and others will look for reasons. It's not any religion's fault; they too are composed of people looking for reasons. It seems to be a part of human nature to believe things so strongly that they become willing to do anything to justify their belief.

Honestly, I'm glad I don't believe anymore.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

back on topic, yes ... What that poor woman must be going through ... only God can give her the strength she needs to overcome her adversary.

Is there some reason why your god would not rescue her or prevent her execution?

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Is there some reason why your god would not rescue her or prevent her execution?

because the promise of heaven is her reward ... Saints pray in heaven too you know

[August]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

because the promise of heaven is her reward ... Saints pray in heaven too you know

That's true. She could very possibly be canonized as a Saint if she remains true to her faith.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by August

That's true. She could very possibly be canonized as a Saint if she remains true to her faith.

Fat lot of good that will do her. Unless of course you believe she will gain some sort of advantage in a place where nothing ever happens.