Swastikas and Germany in the modern day...

Oberon · 03-29-14, 08:54 AM

Another interesting observation and comparison that you might want to make in this thread is the nation of Japan, as well as the treatment of German history in West and East Germany.

Again, I am British so I do not have first hand experience of this matter, however I have read about it and spoken to German people, and have been able, rightly or wrongly, to draw some conclusions from this.

In Japan there wasn't any sense of war guilt impressed upon the population, the nation was demilitarised (briefly) but symbols of Imperial Japan were not banned, and the Emperor was not removed. As such, if one compares modern Japan and modern Germany one sees two very different sides of the spectrum of dealing with a difficult period of history.
Whilst Germany carries its war guilt, Japan has denied it for the most part, although it has paid reperations in many instances, it still denies many of its most brutal crimes such as the 'Rape of Nanking' and conducts historical revision in its school textbooks.

Furthermore in Germany itself, and admittedly this is a more sketchy conclusion that I have drawn, and I await confirmation or denial from those more in the know, there was a difference between how the post-war guilt was taught to East and West Germany, and that, coupled with the vast difference in economic prosperity between East and West Germany in the modern day has meant that if one were to look at Neo-Nazism in Germany you would likely find a slightly higher percentage of Neo-Nazis in the former territories of East Germany than in the West, as people were educated and society tackled the issue in a different manner.

So, it's not really a clear cut issue, few things really are, and historical revisionism takes place all over the world, and I think that as we approach the 100th anniversary of the First World War, there's a danger of it happening again as the victorious Entente look to place the blame of the war firmly upon the Central Powers, one only has to look at Max Hastings on the causes of WWI to see the arguements being put forward at this centenary.

Gammelpreusse · 03-29-14, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Furthermore in Germany itself, and admittedly this is a more sketchy conclusion that I have drawn, and I await confirmation or denial from those more in the know, there was a difference between how the post-war guilt was taught to East and West Germany, and that, coupled with the vast difference in economic prosperity between East and West Germany in the modern day has meant that if one were to look at Neo-Nazism in Germany you would likely find a slightly higher percentage of Neo-Nazis in the former territories of East Germany than in the West, as people were educated and society tackled the issue in a different manner.

The DDR saw itself in the tradition of people who activly fought Nazism (communists, socialists), a "new" Germany" without ties to the past and as such saw now guilt in itself. Instead the "West" was to blame. This was such a strong part of eastern german (and soviet at large) self idendity that it justified much of the state's existence in itself. In ways you still see remnants of that today in the Ukraine conflict, given how often the word "fascist" is thrown around by the russian side of the propaganda game.

The BRD on the other hand considered itself (and still does) the continuation of the old german state. However, a real tackling of the past only came in the wake of the 68ers, the children that were born in the last years of the war or immidialty thereafter, who rose up in the still rather very restrictive after war years with teachers still from the Nazi era and challenged a tendency that was initially very much like that of Japan, forget and move on.

fireftr18 · 03-29-14, 10:42 AM

It's one thing to ban symbols in certain circumstances. In this case, just the fear of repeating the past is understandable. The important thing is to remember the history, the atrocities, the destruction that was caused. Just as we celebrate the high parts of our histories, we need to also remember the low parts. In the US, our history lessons make a point to teach about slavery. We don't honor it, we feel it should be remembered as a low point in our nation's history. We also make it a point to teach how our Native Americans were treated. Another low point. We teach these, not because we're proud of them, but because we're ashamed, and we don't want it repeated. As long as Germany teaches about the Nazi era in history, then that is what is important.

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03-29-14, 08:54 AM	#1
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Another interesting observation and comparison that you might want to make in this thread is the nation of Japan, as well as the treatment of German history in West and East Germany. Again, I am British so I do not have first hand experience of this matter, however I have read about it and spoken to German people, and have been able, rightly or wrongly, to draw some conclusions from this. In Japan there wasn't any sense of war guilt impressed upon the population, the nation was demilitarised (briefly) but symbols of Imperial Japan were not banned, and the Emperor was not removed. As such, if one compares modern Japan and modern Germany one sees two very different sides of the spectrum of dealing with a difficult period of history. Whilst Germany carries its war guilt, Japan has denied it for the most part, although it has paid reperations in many instances, it still denies many of its most brutal crimes such as the 'Rape of Nanking' and conducts historical revision in its school textbooks. Furthermore in Germany itself, and admittedly this is a more sketchy conclusion that I have drawn, and I await confirmation or denial from those more in the know, there was a difference between how the post-war guilt was taught to East and West Germany, and that, coupled with the vast difference in economic prosperity between East and West Germany in the modern day has meant that if one were to look at Neo-Nazism in Germany you would likely find a slightly higher percentage of Neo-Nazis in the former territories of East Germany than in the West, as people were educated and society tackled the issue in a different manner. So, it's not really a clear cut issue, few things really are, and historical revisionism takes place all over the world, and I think that as we approach the 100th anniversary of the First World War, there's a danger of it happening again as the victorious Entente look to place the blame of the war firmly upon the Central Powers, one only has to look at Max Hastings on the causes of WWI to see the arguements being put forward at this centenary.

03-29-14, 10:42 AM	#3
fireftr18 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,528 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	It's one thing to ban symbols in certain circumstances. In this case, just the fear of repeating the past is understandable. The important thing is to remember the history, the atrocities, the destruction that was caused. Just as we celebrate the high parts of our histories, we need to also remember the low parts. In the US, our history lessons make a point to teach about slavery. We don't honor it, we feel it should be remembered as a low point in our nation's history. We also make it a point to teach how our Native Americans were treated. Another low point. We teach these, not because we're proud of them, but because we're ashamed, and we don't want it repeated. As long as Germany teaches about the Nazi era in history, then that is what is important.