Dead?

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by Oleander

This reminds me of when EA released SimCity and then came out and said that it simply isn't possible to make bigger cities or have an offline mode. Within 24 hours there was a video on Youtube of someone playing in offline mode with a bigger city square.

Word to the wise, don't try to put one over on the community, they will beat your butt every time.

Power to the people

Whenever we hear the words 'new DRM' or 'new copy protection scheme' or 'can't use unless ____' it's a call to arms...And we have much bigger and better weapons than the developers. Even if we don't we will make better ones (this is usually a multi-national effort)

Nothing like the international fame for being the first one to prove they broke/cracked it.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Power to the people

Whenever we hear the words 'new DRM' or 'new copy protection scheme' or 'can't use unless ____' it's a call to arms...And we have much bigger and better weapons than the developers. Even if we don't we will make better ones (this is usually a multi-national effort)

Nothing like the international fame for being the first one to prove they broke/cracked it.

hello there TDW,

...but as you can see they continue releasing their products with all these 'locks'.
why do you believe is happening this ? becuase , i think that they are smart enough too to know that it is just a matter of one day (in most cases) to get rid of them (in the case of sh5 took half of a day for the SKIDROW)

these 'locks' reminds me the various ...antivirus programmes.
they do absolutelly nothing than 'warning you' but ...,always, there is a 'virus' that will ...pass. this is called ''progress'' you may say (and you are right), but i have start thinking that it is the same companies ,which are creating the 'ativirus' programmes, that are creating the new 'viruses' too ...

back to cases of the various 'locks' ....why you think they still continue selling 'locked' games as they know that next day will be not?

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by makman94

hello there TDW,

...but as you can see they continue releasing their products with all these 'locks'.
why do you believe is happening this ? becuase , i think that they are smart enough too to know that it is just a matter of one day (in most cases) to get rid of them (in the case of sh5 took half of a day for the SKIDROW)

these 'locks' reminds me the various ...antivirus programmes.
they do absolutelly nothing than 'warning you' but ...,always, there is a 'virus' that will ...pass. this is called ''progress'' you may say (and you are right), but i have start thinking that it is the same companies ,which are creating the 'ativirus' programmes, that are creating the new 'viruses' too ...

back to cases of the various 'locks' ....why you think they still continue selling 'locked' games as they know that next day will be not?

same thing why people put locks on doors and windows. Majority of the people won't mess with it if it has a lock on it

[Oleander]

Part of it has to do with pressure from Financiers, that's usually the case with EA and Ubisoft. Ubisoft claims that they are losing 95% of their revenue due to piracy, how they come up with these numbers is anyone's guess.

But, rather than ask why are people pirating our games, they're looking at ways to come up with DRM to stop it cold which in the case of SH5 makes the game almost unplayable due to long load times caused by the game "checking in". EA also found out that making every single game have to play off the servers cripples the game and pisses everyone off.

So let's look at the other side of the coin. Why do people pirate games? Sometimes it has to do with gamers just being flat out broke or unwilling to pay $60 for a game. Which speaking of, when Super Mario Brothers came out it sold at $60 a lot of that price came from the cartridge manufacture. Today most games are released from cloud storage which is significantly cheaper in bulk, and I believe most people are catching on to that fact. That's how Steam is able to sell games at a cheaper price than anyone else and the do so in large numbers.

The second reason is games are being rushed, they aren't being polished or only a portion of the game is being released and the rest comes out through DLC. It wouldn't be so bad if the original game was $40 and the DLC was $10 a piece. No, the game will cost you $60, the DLC runs anywhere from $20-full retail and its usually lackluster. The Sims games are notorious for this.

The big companies are starting to loose their edge and its giving rise to a load of indie developers which is really good news for us as long as we can keep them out of the hands of the publishers.

[v-i-c-]

Originally Posted by Oleander

Part of it has to do with pressure from Financiers, that's usually the case with EA and Ubisoft. Ubisoft claims that they are losing 95% of their revenue due to piracy, how they come up with these numbers is anyone's guess.

I have no idea how Ubisoft "measures" piracy. But I know from other mobile indie developers that 95% is the usual rate of piracy for their games. They can measure it via Game Center. When you've sold just 5000 copies but you have 100000 users on Game Center then it's pretty clear that 95% of the players use illegal copies.

But the point is how many of those 95% would have bought it if it would have been impossible to copy it? That's something you can't answer unless you have a perfect copy protection.

Originally Posted by Oleander

So let's look at the other side of the coin. Why do people pirate games? Sometimes it has to do with gamers just being flat out broke or unwilling to pay $60 for a game.

Because a lot of people want everything for free and they just don't realize that what they are doing is nothing else but a kind of slavery (using the work of other but not willing to pay). Even my 99 cent titles all got pirated within 3 days - so it clearly is not about the poor "broke people" or overpricing.

Originally Posted by Oleander

Which speaking of, when Super Mario Brothers came out it sold at $60 a lot of that price came from the cartridge manufacture. Today most games are released from cloud storage which is significantly cheaper in bulk, and I believe most people are catching on to that fact. That's how Steam is able to sell games at a cheaper price than anyone else and the do so in large numbers.

A DVD Package with nice art is not that expensive it costs just a few dollars per unit. Getting rid of that would not even result in a price drop from $60 to $50.
I think the 24/7 instant availability of downloads is one of the reason why they go with cheaper prices. More people buy because they are just in the mood to play something like that and they can get it NOW within some minutes. Another reason is the competition on those platforms, price changes can be done within minutes and you don't need to produce boxes and hold them on stock which can be a risk. The usual 30% the platform earns is the same margin that the retailer got before.

Originally Posted by Oleander

The big companies are starting to loose their edge and its giving rise to a load of indie developers which is really good news for us as long as we can keep them out of the hands of the publishers.

The big companies are still winning on the totally overcrowded mobile platforms where usually hundreds of game come out every day. It's harder than ever before for indies today. 3-5 years ago it was a completely different situation and indies had their best days at that time. Just go on an indie-developer forum and ask…

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Power to the people

Whenever we hear the words 'new DRM' or 'new copy protection scheme' or 'can't use unless ____' it's a call to arms...And we have much bigger and better weapons than the developers. Even if we don't we will make better ones (this is usually a multi-national effort)

Nothing like the international fame for being the first one to prove they broke/cracked it.

Why don't you use your "arms" to create something? Instead you are attacking the financial base of the life of others who actually created something.

The "multi-national effort" you are talking about are modders and not pirates.

I've worked 5 years on my sim so far because I am developing it as a one man show - during this time I've invested all my money into it and this made me a really poor person, I am happy that I have something to eat which is basically my only luxury in life since I'm developing this title (I've left the house exactly 5 times this year because I don't have the time and money to do something outside at all) - I'm not nuts, I will use a copy protection - so the first thing you will do is crack it? For the fame? I would not call this fame but a shame.

Seriously I hope persons like you will someday work months just to find out that they finally won't get paid. (and even this would be nothing compared to 5 years) - how much is 5 years of your lifetime worth for you? Do you ever got pirated? Do you have the slightest idea how that feels? I really hope you will feel that feeling one day to learn something and to stop ripping off other people.

Even behind giant companies like Ubisoft there are people and jobs. And they have all rights to decide how much money they want for their work and how their product works (DRM, features etc.). If you don't like it then just don't buy it, no one forces you to buy it, but it does not give you the slightest (morale) right to crack it.

[Oleander]

Originally Posted by v-i-c-

I have no idea how Ubisoft "measures" piracy. But I know from other mobile indie developers that 95% is the usual rate of piracy for their games. They can measure it via Game Center. When you've sold just 5000 copies but you have 100000 users on Game Center then it's pretty clear that 95% of the players use illegal copies.

But the point is how many of those 95% would have bought it if it would have been impossible to copy it? That's something you can't answer unless you have a perfect copy protection.

That I will agree with you on, but not all games require you to register to play that's why I'm wondering where the numbers come from cause they seem pretty high. Its only a recent thing where publishers like Ubisoft have required games to be launched via U-Play much like what Steam does through its start up verification process. I'm not dead set against DRM, but I don't like it when it has the potential to render a game unplayable.

Originally Posted by v-i-c-

Because a lot of people want everything for free and they just don't realize that what they are doing is nothing else but a kind of slavery (using the work of other but not willing to pay). Even my 99 cent titles all got pirated within 3 days - so it clearly is not about the poor "broke people" or overpricing.

To an extent, yes. I can tell you from personal experience that I have bought my last game at launch price after I've been burned on several titles being launched buggy and nearly unplayable; SimCity, Arkham City, New Vegas and probably others. Nothing makes me more ill than paying $60 for a game and then not being able to play it because they messed up something in the code, or it was a bad port to PC or the new DRM policy has broken it. I'm not saying that's the sole reason but I think people are timid about buying games these days cause they're worried they'll get screwed, I mean look at Gary's Incident.


Please don't think I'm defending pirating, I hate it but it has its benefits. Look at what it has done for SH5, a game that was all but DOA when it launched from either bad code or stuff just being flat out unfinished. I think what TDW was trying to say is that those guys who can crack the game and get the source code so they can fix the problems if a game is broken, not to do it for personal game. Look at the modding communities out there, how many games have those communities to thank for their longevity on the market? There's a bunch that are still around 10+ years later thanks to mods and community improvement.

[v-i-c-]

Originally Posted by Oleander

Please don't think I'm defending pirating, I hate it but it has its benefits. Look at what it has done for SH5, a game that was all but DOA when it launched from either bad code or stuff just being flat out unfinished. I think what TDW was trying to say is that those guys who can crack the game and get the source code so they can fix the problems if a game is broken, not to do it for personal game. Look at the modding communities out there, how many games have those communities to thank for their longevity on the market? There's a bunch that are still around 10+ years later thanks to mods and community improvement.

Pirating (and cracking) and unfinished games are two different things. Pirating happens always and always for the same reason: "I don't want to pay", while not all games are unfinished and a lot of games can be modded without cracking. But even if modding is not possible it's not a justification for cracking. What if the company does not want to see any user modifications? (for example to release another more complex version later) You don't own software or games you buy a license to use them "as is" - that's the deal. (sure "as is" should also mean "as advertised" and not "unfinished rubbish")

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Let this be a lesson to other game makers: we are not going to put up with pay to play or microtransactions or internet/cloud based games (we want physical copy on CD/DVD) or DRM crap

Remember there are people like me who, just because I can, will break your DRM/copy protection just for the fun/challenge of it. It may take people like me time to do it but rest assured we have all the time in the world and we will always succeed. Nothing brings a smile to our faces more than breaking/defeating what was thought to be unbreakable/undefeatable

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Power to the people

Whenever we hear the words 'new DRM' or 'new copy protection scheme' or 'can't use unless ____' it's a call to arms...And we have much bigger and better weapons than the developers. Even if we don't we will make better ones (this is usually a multi-national effort)

Nothing like the international fame for being the first one to prove they broke/cracked it.

Nope....isn't going to happen here on SubSim.

This forum is not to be used as a messenger board to game makers, or anyone else threatening copyright infringement.

Now I think you should remember "there are people like me" who will enforce the above...'just because I can' and I am confident that is what the forum owner expects.