An apology to our allies.

[Skybird]

States have no friends, it is naive to assume that. States have interests, and so at best are temporary partners regarding practical issues.

I expected nothing else than what is revealed in Germany these days. I am only surprised that so many people seriously claim to have been unknowing. As I said: naivety en masse over here.

The deep mistrust between Merkel and Obama was existent already before.

The French, British, Russians and Chinese spy on us, too.

All this spying is not so much about terrorism. It is about economic spionage, business spying, knowing in advance the negotiation tactic of the other when meeting him at the table next day. It is about how to penetrate best and anchor deepest own business lobbyists in the other's political every day politics. The British even were so kind to say that out clear and loud - cudos for their honesty!

The outlook on surveillance and sniffing out private people?

I am convinced that the pressure from collapsing currencies will mount until just two scenarios are left anymore that could materialise:

- either a return to a value-money (gold standard or else) with all the fall and breakdown that follows when the debt bubbles burst and people lose their pensions and saving during and already before that: this is the scenario of a major, slightly controlled breakdown. It has been done before in history. It'S the lesser evil, compared to sitting it out and then seeing uncontrolle collapse at the end: much worse.

- or the state's power-profiteers (officials, politicians) - trying to secure their power by establishing a dictatorship and according massive suppression, under whose umbrella an official debt-money that does not represent values, but uses debt bonds - the recognition of what we already have, de facto - gets introduced. For slightly varying motives, all seem to want this: socialists, Keynesians, EUcrats.

I see the first as the desirable and necessary, but I see the second as what actually is more likely. Both America and Europe have politicians that clearly prefer the second. Their craving to stay in power tramples all common sense.

Since this is so, you can safely assume that the spying on people, the penetration and deletion of their privacy, the control of their opinion forming, will increase and will be massively boosted. Also, since the crisis sharpens, economic spying will increase even more.

BTW, I assume that nothing of strategic importance has been communicated over Merkel's cellphone. There is a catalogue of different secrecy levels of what is allowed to communicate over private cellphones, encrypted cellphones, and what always is forbidden to communicate over cellphones.

This is not meant to appease over the NSA activities. But as I said in another thread, I find it pathetic if the weak is outraged over the stronger one acting strong, and seriously expecting him to act less strong and more weak. That expectation is a dud from beginning on. If these idiots over here would mean serious business, they would do their share to become stronger themselves to meet the other on same eye level. So, a lot of show there. Europe was stupid enough to comofrtably ignore when the US ov er decades formed the basis of its stratgeic, total superiority in the communication and electronic field. That all main servers of global internet traffic now reside inside the US, is the result. That all communication patterns, globally, depend on schemes that make them vulnerable to American surveillance and possible control/intervention, also is the logical consequences of Europes own failings.

We complain that the other is so strong. We should better ask why we allowed to stay so weak.

There is frequent complaining over here that the US sometimes implies that American laws must be followed by the rest of the world, are valid outside the US as well. But currently I hear a lot of talking that implies that America must follow German laws. Hypocrisy!

No need to apologize, Bubblehead. Or have you given the order to the NSA?

[danasan]

Originally Posted by Skybird

States have no friends, it is naive to assume that. States have interests, and so at best are temporary partners regarding practical issues.

I expected nothing else than what is revealed in Germany these days. I am only surprised that so many people seriously claim to have been unknowing. As I said: naivety en masse over here.

The deep mistrust between Merkel and Obama was existent already before.

The French, British, Russians and Chinese spy on us, too.

All this spying is not so much about terrorism. It is about economic spionage, business spying, knowing in advance the negotiation tactic of the other when meeting him at the table next day. It is about how to penetrate best and anchor deepest own business lobbyists in the other's political every day politics. The British even were so kind to say that out clear and loud - cudos for their honesty!

SNIP

No need to apologize, Bubblehead. Or have you given the order to the NSA?

I totally agree on that.

Let me add, please, it is about resources as well: Oil, gas, water etc.

On another note, it seems to me as if the political part of the USA ( not the people ) is going to continue their politics of isolation from the rest of the world. And yes, resources again, seems to me the reason for that.

Look over there to China, they are growing - economically speaking - each and every year at a percentage which the rest of the world is loosing every year, generally speaking. And they are going to get all the resources like oil, gas they can get. Is that a situation the USA as a "superpower" can/will live with?

OK, we lost WWI and WWII. There is still no peace contract/declaration. We are still not a sovereign state and who knows if and when we will be. We are nothing better than a "suburb" of the USA today. But I really do wonder if it could be worse being a "suburb" of China or Russia? I'm fine with that.



"ah, the Sauerkraut recipe you emailed to your sister isn't that bad"

[Herr-Berbunch]

'I have that naked photo of you on the beach as my phone's wallpaper.'

[Jimbuna]

I doubt there are many nations naïve enough to think it doesn't go on and is practiced by most nations (those with the ability).....the only change is the media coverage the matter is currently receiving and has had in recent times.

[Betonov]

Just give us what you dug up on our ''leaders'' so we can finally have enough to hang them all

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Just give us what you dug up on our ''leaders'' so we can finally have enough to hang them all

I sense a reply or two coming

[Wolferz]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Just give us what you dug up on our ''leaders'' so we can finally have enough to hang them all

Hang them?

But, but, we have all these newly purchased guillotines!
We'll loan ya one and you can throw rotten veggies at the guys in the que.

[Betonov]

No guillotines. I want to see them squirm

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Betonov

No guillotines. I want to see them squirm

You can wire me the money and as soon as I receive it I'll send you the rope

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

An apology to our friends in Germany and other nations for our tyrannical government's extending it's disregard for privacy rights beyond our borders to our Allies.

Our government isn't what I would call tyrannical..... yet. It's definitely working on it though.

Originally Posted by Armistead

We've always spied on our allies, cuz often they turn out to be our future enemies.

It's not the foreign spying that worries me. After all, a government should be looking out for the best interests of its people. What worries me is when that same government is spying on its own people.

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Nothing is really new; there's just more of it!

In terms of foreign "intelligence gathering", I find myself uncaring. Any given country's government has always been snooping on other countries. However in terms of domestic, just because it may not be anything new, doesn't make it any less unacceptable when brought to light. A government of the people, and for the people, should not ever be using it's apparatus against it's people. That I believe, is the road to tyrannical rule.

[mookiemookie]

Everyone spies on everyone else. Jonathan Pollard, anyone?

[mapuc]

I agree on what one of the Danish journalist said on the danish news

USA is in one of their Major of not the biggest diplomatic crisis

or is it an exaggeration ?

Markus

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Everyone spies on everyone else. Jonathan Pollard, anyone?

Benjamin Franklin?
Paid by all sides to spy on their own population and on the foriegners.
Not much has changed in the couple of centuries apart from the technology.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Everyone spies on everyone else. Jonathan Pollard, anyone?

True.

[TorpX]

I find all of this very amusing.

Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize and endorsed, in effect, by europeans because he was good and pure and true (or so we were told, ad nauseum). Now, reality is slowly seeping in to the picture.

Obama (and the US Federal ruling class) trample the U.S. Constitution, spend recklessly, and generally use American institutions like drunken frat boys use an abandoned cabin. If Obama has no respect for the American people, why would anyone expect him to have any respect for foreign peoples.