Stand your ground laws...

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

This is an anti gun thing.

I even bet they will work in Trayvon Martin, and Turning GZ into a criminal despite being exonerated in a court of law.

What most the rubes and idiots don't know is GZ did not try for a SYG defense.

Did you even read the opening post? This is not about that case, it is about Stand Your Ground laws. Period.

[Platapus]

Use of lethal force should be a very last resort. Every other reasonable escape should be necessary. No state requires a person to place themselves in jeopardy when deciding to defend themselves using lethal force. Stand your ground laws can give people the wrong idea about last resorts.

With the authority to own weapons comes a greater responsibility for their use. This includes the responsibility not to allow situations to escalate and the responsibilty to de-escalate. Ego and pride should not enter into the decision. In some past instances, I am not sure that ego/pride did not play a part.

Existing self-defense laws in states that do not have a "stand your ground" clause, address this reasonably.

As I have posted before, anyone owning a gun for self-defense needs to read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad F. Ayoob It is an eye opening book on the realities of self-defense with firearms.

[Bubblehead1980]

Left wing types think that there is no right to self defense, be it against a thug or the government.They believe the proper means to self defense against any threat, guns, are not a right, even though it is an actual right guaranteed by the constitution. Obama is a legitimate racist(read his book Dreams from My Father) and put that with all his actions on race since.Always, the non black guy is wrong in his eyes.Henry Louis Gates became disorderly with a police officer and was arrested, racist cop in obama's eyes who "acted stupidly" , not the fact his friend broke the law and was arrested as anyone else would be. Ordered Eric Holder to no prosecute Black Panthers for voter intimidation after taking office in 2009, even though there was clear, undisputed evidence.

Shirley Sherrod incident, defended her, even thought she admitted racism. Just a long string of his racist behavior.Obama is now being even more racist by playing up the victim mentality "could have been me", guess what, in right circumstances back then it could have been because obama was a punk then just like he is now, and would have acted much like Traygone, resulting in someone defending themselves.Going on what he described as his mindset in his book, he was a little punk with a victim attitude that dislikes white people, who he sees as oppressors.Basically, same thing is now, nothing has changed.

Stand your grand worked here, very well.This is the intent and so tired of people saying "last resort" , it was a last resort.Let some punk attack you, bash your head in pavement and see if you don't think it's a last resort.Honestly, if you dont see using your gun as an option then, you're an idiot.

[Skybird]

A big problem I became aware of when reading about it today, is the obvious inconsistency, or better the mutual contradiction between certain US laws, namely in Florida.

There they have the stand your ground law. And also the 10-20-life rule, meaning that any situation where subjects draw a firearm, automatically must get 10 years, and must get 20 years automatically when not only drawing a weapon but also firing it - where it does not matter whether the subject shot into the air as a warning or aimed at a person. When during the firing the person fired at gets killed or even just wounded by the shot, the subject must get 25 years or life.

This led to a series of bizarre rulings in recent years. Where you have the right to shoot and kill somebody under circumstances where stand your ground applies, but using your weapon for a warning shot can earn you 20 years or life. And actually, that is not just a theoretical possibility, but common practice:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/e...PjN/story.html

How could Marissa Alexander, a 31-year-old mother of three, receive a 20-year prison sentence for firing a bullet into a wall near her abusive ex-husband, even though no one was harmed?

(...)

Ronald Thompson, 62, a disabled veteran, fired two shots into the ground to protect an elderly woman from her violent 17-year-old grandson. State Attorney Angela Corey — the same prosecutor in the Zimmerman case — charged him with four counts of aggravated assault. Thompson was sentenced to 20 years in prison, a punishment that the judge in the case called a “crime in itself.” (He is currently awaiting a new trial.)

Orville Lee Wollard, a former auxiliary police force member, shot a bullet into the wall to scare away his daughter’s abusive boyfriend. Prosecutors offered him probation. But he wanted to be exonerated at trial. Now he’s serving 20 years.

Erik Weyant, 22, fired shots in the air to disperse a group of drunk men who accosted him in a parking lot outside a bar and blocked his car. No one was hurt. But he’s in for 20 years.

In many cases, the fact that they chose to fire a warning shot, instead of aiming to kill, was used as evidence against them at trial, said Greg Newburn of Families Against Mandatory Minimums. If you were truly in fear of your life, the logic goes, you would aim at the chest, not the wall.

Florida lawmakers, in their infinite wisdom, began to notice that a lot of people were getting severely punished simply for defending themselves. But instead of repealing the Draconian measure, they passed another one: the “stand your ground” law.

Fan-tas-tic. Those people get their lives messed up and stolen from them for scaring away attackers without harming anyone, but George Zimmerman kills an unarmed one and walks away freely without even formally being held responisble for an act of misjudgement of the situation, not to mention the possibility that it simply was slaughter caused by subliminal racism, as some people claim.

Rally, those Florida laws are fan-tas-tic.

[CaptainHaplo]

It is important to note that in the case of Marissa Alexander, Stand Your Ground was not allowed because of 2 factors.

1) Alexander - after fighting with her husband, went and retrieved the firearm from her garage, then returned to the fight. She didn't "stand her ground" - she retreated, armed herself and purposefully re-engaged offensively. Thus "stand your ground" did not apply.

(The fact she claimed she fired at the ceiling and the bullet hole was at the level of an adult's head - didn't help her much.)

2) In the case of Alexander - as well as the cases of many others who tried to use the law as a shield after discharging a weapon - lethal, or potentially lethal force is allowable ONLY if you are in fear of great bodily injury or death. If your in that kind of fear - your not going to shoot at the ceiling, the wall, etc. People who fire their guns hoping to "scare" and stop an altercation - are not doing so within the confines of SYG.

[CaptainHaplo]

With all that said - does anyone but me find it somewhat ironic that Holder and Obama are trying to get rid of a law that - when invoked in court - has allowed more black defendants (both % wise and in sheer numbers) in Florida go free after a shooting than whites?

Overall, black defendants went free 66 percent of the time in fatal cases compared to 61 percent for white defendants

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/...nd-law/1233152

Stand your ground laws - when invoked and enforced properly - save lives - without regards to race. How is that a bad thing?

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Did you even read the opening post? This is not about that case, it is about Stand Your Ground laws. Period.

That case, like it or not, brought that law into the forefront, my mention of it is relevant.

I am not calling you out on anything, we resolved that earlier, calm down.


Or will I forever be bitched at when mentioning those 2 names in reference to anything, even if relevant?

No one would give a flying screw about SYG if it wasn't for the Zimmerman case, take a step back.

[AVGWarhawk]

Whatever happened to equal force?

[garren]

I bet you if an unarmed person assaulted a cop bad enough the cop would shoot them, black or white, man or woman. Especially if it's a female cop dealing with a male suspect that assaults her and pins her down on the ground and starts bashing her skull against the concrete after breaking her nose.

So is it just us citizens who won't have the right to defend ourselves and only those government folks?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by garren

I bet you if an unarmed person assaulted a cop bad enough the cop would shoot them, black or white, man or woman. Especially if it's a female cop dealing with a male suspect that assaults her and pins her down on the ground and starts bashing her skull against the concrete after breaking her nose.

So is it just us citizens who won't have the right to defend ourselves and only those government folks?

Kind of a nutty question. If you are assaulting a cop is that defending yourself? Sounds like resisting arrest to me. But lets take that with a grain of salt. We understand police get out of hand with the batons, etc. Not much you can defend yourself with if you are battered by baton welding police. One is kind of subdued quickly in that situation.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Kind of a nutty question. If you are assaulting a cop is that defending yourself? Sounds like resisting arrest to me. But lets take that with a grain of salt. We understand police get out of hand with the batons, etc. Not much you can defend yourself with if you are battered by baton welding police. One is kind of subdued quickly in that situation.

Well, if a cop is acting unjustly, you have the right to defend yourself if you are in fear of your life or great bodily harm since committing a crime under the color of authority is also a crime.However, it's rolling the dice because police are automatically assumed to be the good guys , it's an uphill battle and better make damn sure you are in the right, but there have been cases where people have had charges dropped or found not guilty for defending themselves against police going too far.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Well, if a cop is acting unjustly, you have the right to defend yourself if you are in fear of your life or great bodily harm since committing a crime under the color of authority is also a crime.However, it's rolling the dice because police are automatically assumed to be the good guys , it's an uphill battle and better make damn sure you are in the right, but there have been cases where people have had charges dropped or found not guilty for defending themselves against police going too far.

That is why I stated one is subdued quickly when the batons are involved. Not much time to SYG. More likely on the ground a bloody mess. But, yes, cops get in trouble for it(in most cases). Either way, one knock to my head and SYG means nothing. I'm out cold.

[garren]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Kind of a nutty question. If you are assaulting a cop is that defending yourself? Sounds like resisting arrest to me. But lets take that with a grain of salt. We understand police get out of hand with the batons, etc. Not much you can defend yourself with if you are battered by baton welding police. One is kind of subdued quickly in that situation.

Are you saying unarmed citizens who attack cops with their hands should be shot? Then there's nothing wrong with what Zimmerman did.

But there have been some dirty cops do some pretty dirty things.



and this one is just crazy...

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by garren

Are you saying unarmed citizens who attack cops with their hands should be shot?

Well, if a guy knocks a cop flat with his bare hands and turns to the next one, the next cop or even the one who was assaulted (if possible) needs to take action.

If that means shooting him, well...he shouldn't have assaulted a cop in the first place.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Whatever happened to equal force?

Probably not equitable enough for some.