Boy Scouts of America votes to ease ban on gay members

[garren]

But there's a division of sexes for a reason, or so I thought. Most people are straight and don't want to feel uncomfortable knowing that their private parts might be getting looked at by the opposite sex. Now straight boys have to feel uncomfortable being around other boys who might be eyeing their private parts when they shower or go to the restroom. That's not really fair to straight boys is it? Not like they are allowed to go into the female restroom and make them feel uncomfortable.

So, I feel like if we are moving to an "anything goes" type of society then I think it's time we get rid of his and her bathrooms altogether and just have integrated bathrooms and integrated showering as well. This whole "us and them" isn't promoting equality anyways. Just making one group feel superior to another. If we can tell straight boys to "get over it" when it comes to their concerns for personal comfort then we should be telling females the same thing when it comes to their concerns about males seeing them naked as well.

It's 2013 (does that even matter? I hear this so often as being an excuse for change.) and I can't believe they can integrate women into combat roles and onboard submarines at the snap of a finger but men and women can't share a common restroom in 2013 while gays can with straight people. What's the concern? Get over it already people. Lose your morality cause nobody believes in God anymore or the bible cause Barack Obama is our new messiah and we all must worship him and all the "progress" he's bringing! Before long we will be just like all the other 3rd world countries and that's great because America needs to share the power with the rest of the world cause we're all equals and nobody's country should hold power over another and we should all be free to walk around this world naked and have sex with anybody we want in public places and with non-humans as well and with trees and rocks and insects.

And while we're at it I think we should be accepting of men marrying more than one wife and women marrying more than one husband and all sorts of other formerly "deviant" acts. It's obvious nobody cares about the bible anymore or what it says. Anything and everything should go from this point forward. Don't hold back. Be as perverted as you wish to be cause government run public schools have taught us that evolution is what is real and that there is no God and that the bible is just a fiction book.

Want to marry your dog or have sex with it - go for it and get a tax break for it too. Nobody should be able to ever tell you no or that you're disgusting again. Everybody's a winner in a progressive liberal world. There are no losers. That's oppression and offensive to YOUR personal views and way of life. Want to marry your daughter and breed with her? Go for it. Break her in and make a real woman out of her. Want to breastfeed your 17 year old son and show him how to pleasure a woman with his mouth? You're such a good mom! That's how you raise a real man who will treat women reaaaallllllyyyy good!

For real, I honestly don't care anymore. I don't recognize America anymore or where it's heading. Progression you say? Progression to where? Hell? Sure seems like it. So if that's where we're heading then might as well go all out! I'm not knocking what anyone does anymore. I've gotten to the place where I'm even accepting of murderers and rapists as well. Why not? Who am I to judge them or knock their way of life? Whatever floats your boat - go for it. Hell, why does anyone even allow anyone to govern over them at all? You don't want a God to govern over you but you don't mind allowing other men and women telling you what to do or how to live your life? That's strange. Are you a free man or woman or a sheep that needs to be herded and controlled and told what to do? Who is anyone to tell you how to live your life if they are less than a God? Just another a-hole with an opinion of how you should be living your life. Why have government at all? Why not support a society without government so people can be truly free and go hog wild any way they wish? Why just stop with homosexuality people - we can do so much more to show how truly disgusting we can be!

[AVGWarhawk]

But there's a division of sexes for a reason, or so I thought. Most people are straight and don't want to feel uncomfortable knowing that their private parts might be getting looked at by the opposite sex. Now straight boys have to feel uncomfortable being around other boys who might be eyeing their private parts when they shower or go to the restroom. That's not really fair to straight boys is it? Not like they are allowed to go into the female restroom and make them feel uncomfortable.

I'm uncomfortable with anyone, other than my wife, looking at my privates. I was more so when I was a kid. Hell, I suffer from bashful bladder. I'm not sure if what you stated really qualifies as a reason.

So, I feel like if we are moving to an "anything goes" type of society then I think it's time we get rid of his and her bathrooms altogether and just have integrated bathrooms and integrated showering as well. This whole "us and them" isn't promoting equality anyways. Just making one group feel superior to another. If we can tell straight boys to "get over it" when it comes to their concerns for personal comfort then we should be telling females the same thing when it comes to their concerns about males seeing them naked as well.

There should be gay bathroom facilities then?

It's 2013 (does that even matter? I hear this so often as being an excuse for change.) and I can't believe they can integrate women into combat roles and onboard submarines at the snap of a finger but men and women can't share a common restroom in 2013 while gays can with straight people. What's the concern? Get over it already people. Lose your morality cause nobody believes in God anymore or the bible cause Barack Obama is our new messiah and we all must worship him and all the "progress" he's bringing! Before long we will be just like all the other 3rd world countries and that's great because America needs to share the power with the rest of the world cause we're all equals and nobody's country should hold power over another and we should all be free to walk around this world naked and have sex with anybody we want in public places and with non-humans as well and with trees and rocks and insects.

And while we're at it I think we should be accepting of men marrying more than one wife and women marrying more than one husband and all sorts of other formerly "deviant" acts. It's obvious nobody cares about the bible anymore or what it says. Anything and everything should go from this point forward. Don't hold back. Be as perverted as you wish to be cause government run public schools have taught us that evolution is what is real and that there is no God and that the bible is just a fiction book.

Want to marry your dog or have sex with it - go for it and get a tax break for it too. Nobody should be able to ever tell you no or that you're disgusting again. Everybody's a winner in a progressive liberal world. There are no losers. That's oppression and offensive to YOUR personal views and way of life. Want to marry your daughter and breed with her? Go for it. Break her in and make a real woman out of her. Want to breastfeed your 17 year old son and show him how to pleasure a woman with his mouth? You're such a good mom! That's how you raise a real man!

For real, I honestly don't care anymore. I don't recognize America anymore or where it's heading. Progression you say? Progression to where? Hell? Sure seems like it. So if that's where we're heading then might as well go all out! I'm not knocking what anyone does anymore. I've gotten to the place where I'm even accepting of murderers and rapists as well. Why not? Who am I to judge them or knock their way of life? Whatever floats your boat - go for it. Hell, why does anyone even allow anyone to govern over them at all? You don't want a God to govern over you but you don't mind allowing other men and women telling you what to do or how to live your life? That's strange.

Who is anyone to tell you how to live your life if they are less than a God? Just another a-hole with an opinion of how you should be living your life. Are you a man or a sheep? Why have government at all? Why not support a society without government so people can be truly free and go hog wild any way they wish? Why just stop with homosexuality?

I'm at a loss for words here.

[August]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I'm uncomfortable with anyone, other than my wife, looking at my privates.

This is one of the ideas behind segregating sexes. The concept that nobody need feel bashful (or at least feel less so) around people who don't have a reason to look. I don't see why this concept remains valid for gender but not sexuality when they are basically the same in their effect upon the group.

What mixing genders OR allowing open homosexuality does is completely change the social dynamic of any group by adding a whole new layer of complexity to it and I think in the case of the Boy Scouts it is a level of complexity that is unhealthy and unnecessary. The Scouts are not supposed to be about sex of any kind.

Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. That is what they are there to learn.

I believe anything else is best reserved for learning about elsewhere.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by August

This is one of the ideas behind segregating sexes. The concept that nobody need feel bashful (or at least feel less so) around people who don't have a reason to look. I don't see why this concept remains valid for gender but not sexuality when they are basically the same in their effect upon the group.

What mixing genders OR allowing open homosexuality does is completely change the social dynamic of any group by adding a whole new layer of complexity to it and I think in the case of the Boy Scouts it is a level of complexity that is unhealthy and unnecessary. The Scouts are not supposed to be about sex of any kind.

Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. That is what they are there to learn.

I believe anything else is best reserved for learning about elsewhere.

August, they are not initiating a, "Let's Learn Gay" merit badge.

[August]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

August, they are not initiating a, "Let's Learn Gay" merit badge.

They might as well be. Like I said it's adding a whole new and complex aspect to Scouting that didn't exist beforehand. It's going to have a greater impact than a lot of people think.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by August

They might as well be. Like I said it's adding a whole new and complex aspect to Scouting that didn't exist beforehand.

How is it different than explicitly excluding homosexuals? The aspect is already there, and the spin on it is that it's wrong unhealthy and unwanted.

It's going to have a greater impact than a lot of people think.

Maybe so.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I'm sorry, but it's already too late for you. The truth is that just reading this thread has made you gay. That's how it works, you know? It's like cooties only with sexual orientation. In a few days you'll start feeling the urge to buy new window treatments and download a Barbra Streisand album.

Going to a bar and requesting some Madonna music.... What's the bar's name? THE EMPTY CLOSET!

There is this show called Trailer Park Boys in Canada about guys who get out of jail and document their lives to show others what not to do. In one episode they decide to open a bar and they tell the village idiots to go pass out flyers in different bars in town. Well, on opening night... "Everybody is requesting Madonna and teen pop stuff...." and they go ask the idiots where they passed out the flyers and they passed them out at "this new bar called The Empty Closet" It was funny.

Originally Posted by Tchocky

And why do they have parades?!?!

You don't see any STRAIGHT PRIDE parades, answer me that.

Yeah! Yeah! What about White History month?!

Originally Posted by garren

Why does everyone assume that the person with the unpopular opinion in any particular forum is trolling? Because from this end of the ship it sure feels like I'm being trolled just the same. Perhaps a moderator should come and split the ship in half with a torpedo and end this forum if we can't agree to disagree without the finger pointing and accusations of trolling.

This thread is doing nothing but making me laugh. What started out being a serious discussion about a current event has turned into senseless bashing and humor.

Disaster...

[August]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

How is it different than explicitly excluding homosexuals? The aspect is already there, and the spin on it is that it's wrong unhealthy and unwanted.

That's a great point. If everyone just minded their own business and kept their mouth shut about where they prefer to dip their tallywhacker or where their neighbor is dipping theirs it wouldn't be a problem or a controversy. Unfortunately neither side is going to back off and that's why I think this could really damage if not destroy the BSA in the crossfire.

[garren]

Originally Posted by August

They might as well be. Like I said it's adding a whole new and complex aspect to Scouting that didn't exist beforehand. It's going to have a greater impact than a lot of people think.

I think it's going to be the end of the boy scouts honestly. I already know of 5 churches in my area that are withdrawing support to the boy scouts already since yesterday. And since the boy scouts receive 70% or more of their funding from churches and religious donations I'm thinking it will be the end of the boy scouts altogether. Probably what the gay community was hoping for anyways. If they can't participate they want to destroy what other have so everyone's miserable. I'm sure they will adopt to wearing short skirts and show up at your door selling cookies and if that doesn't work Obama will bail them out and use federal tax money to keep the gay scouts up and running.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by garren

I think it's going to be the end of the boy scouts honestly. I already know of 5 churches in my area that are withdrawing support to the boy scouts already since yesterday. And since the boy scouts receive 70% or more of their funding from churches and religious donations I'm thinking it will be the end of the boy scouts altogether. Probably what the gay community was hoping for anyways. If they can't participate they want to destroy what other have so everyone's miserable. I'm sure they will adopt to wearing short skirts and show up at your door selling cookies and if that doesn't work Obama will bail them out and use federal tax money to keep the gay scouts up and running.

Did you hear that Obamacare has a tax credit for sexual reassignment surgery?

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by August

What mixing genders OR allowing open homosexuality does is completely change the social dynamic of any group by adding a whole new layer of complexity to it and I think in the case of the Boy Scouts it is a level of complexity that is unhealthy and unnecessary. The Scouts are not supposed to be about sex of any kind.

That's a fair point but do you think the discriminatory and exclusionary step of refusing access to all gay people goes too far?

Also, how does allowing gay people in suddenly make it all about sex?

Surely it's as focused on sex as the old rulebook was, ie rules about what orientations were and were not allowed. There's your first level of complexity right there.

Also as far as changing social group dynamics, can it not be said that doing so in this case allows it to reflect more accurately the society we live in?

Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. That is what they are there to learn.

I believe anything else is best reserved for learning about elsewhere.

Agreed entirely. It's not like lifting the ban on gay people will add the word "homosexual" to that list. Also I think it would serve to underline the "friendly, courteous, kind & reverent" part of the list

It's not as if gay people who want to be scout leaders are interested in anything other than what you mentioned. Blocking them out gives the idea that gay people can't be trusted not to make everything about sex.

EDIT - I see AVG made the same point but better, while I was typing

[August]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

That's a fair point but do you think the discriminatory and exclusionary step of refusing access to all gay people goes too far?

No further than the discriminatory and exclusionary step of refusing access to all women to the Boy Scouts goes too far. The BSA is not a co-ed organization. The reason that the co-ed division exists is because of sexuality. Homosexuality is sexuality. What's the difference?

Also, how does allowing gay people in suddenly make it all about sex?

The same way it would if we made the Boy Scouts co-ed. You have brought sexual tension into a situation that did not openly contain it beforehand. You cannot deny it wouldn't have a major impact.

Surely it's as focused on sex as the old rulebook was, ie rules about what orientations were and were not allowed. There's your first level of complexity right there.

Putting on our pants in the morning was the true first level of complexity we face. There have been a lot of layers of complexity since. I never claimed sexual segregation makes the Boy Scouts complexity free just less so.

Also as far as changing social group dynamics, can it not be said that doing so in this case allows it to reflect more accurately the society we live in?

Whether that is a good thing or not depends I think upon the group. Do you think human sexual habits are something the Boy Scouts should be concerning itself with?

Agreed entirely. It's not like lifting the ban on gay people will add the word "homosexual" to that list. Also I think it would serve to underline the "friendly, courteous, kind & reverent" part of the list

It's not as if gay people who want to be scout leaders are interested in anything other than what you mentioned. Blocking them out gives the idea that gay people can't be trusted not to make everything about sex.

So you really think it won't be that big of a deal? Well good luck getting the churches to agree with you and they are the ones who keep Scouting going. If this causes the BSA to fragment and die will this exercise in social engineering have been worth it? I find that difficult to accept.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by August

No further than the discriminatory and exclusionary step of refusing access to all women to the Boy Scouts goes too far. The BSA is not a co-ed organization. The reason that the co-ed division exists is because of sexuality. Homosexuality is sexuality. What's the difference?

The practice of sexual segregation is well-established with single-sex schools, sports and so on.
There's an important distinction to be drawn here between gender and sexuality. Segregation of gender happens all the time with children, because boys and girls grow up differently in terms of development and biology and such. Segregation of sexuality doesn't and shouldn't happen. A gay boy* grows up the same as a straight boy, segregating this out further just causes problems, as far as I can see.

*=for sake of this argument let's assume sexuality is inherent

The same way it would if we made the Boy Scouts co-ed. You have brought sexual tension into a situation that did not openly contain it beforehand. You cannot deny it wouldn't have a major impact.

Certainly an impact, not sure about major at all. I'm not sure it's worth the general negativity of excluding people on basis of sexuality, which as you point out is not what Scouting is about.

Putting on our pants in the morning was the true first level of complexity we face. There have been a lot of layers of complexity since. I never claimed sexual segregation makes the Boy Scouts complexity free just less so.

Gotcha!

Whether that is a good thing or not depends I think upon the group. Do you think human sexual habits are something the Boy Scouts should be concerning itself with?

Not at all, but the BSA is directly involving itself by excluding on the basis of sexual preference. Of course, the discussion now about changing that rule brings it all up again, but that should all quiet down once it's decided.

So you really think it won't be that big of a deal? Well good luck getting the churches to agree with you and they are the ones who keep Scouting going.

There have been plenty of companies withdrawing donations because of the discriminatory policy, the scouts are out of money either way, perhaps.

If this causes the BSA to fragment and die will this exercise in social engineering have been worth it? I find that difficult to accept.

Definitely a sad thing to happen, but if basic homophobia turns out to be the only thing holding it together then I'm not sure if it's worth keeping. Six of one

[August]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

There's an important distinction to be drawn here between gender and sexuality. Segregation of gender happens all the time with children, because boys and girls grow up differently in terms of development and biology and such. Segregation of sexuality doesn't and shouldn't happen. A gay boy* grows up the same as a straight boy, segregating this out further just causes problems, as far as I can see.

Biology and development do not require more distinction than slightly different plumbing arraignments. Sexuality is the primary driver for segregating the genders, especially with teenagers. Anything else is artificially induced in relation to that.

Not at all, but the BSA is directly involving itself by excluding on the basis of sexual preference. Of course, the discussion now about changing that rule brings it all up again, but that should all quiet down once it's decided.

Unfortunately that takes cooperation from both sides. Regardless of the decision there will be continued reason to keep talking about it.

There have been plenty of companies withdrawing donations because of the discriminatory policy, the scouts are out of money either way, perhaps.

More than perhaps, I am sure you are correct. The gay rights issue has extended to just about every facet of American life. It's almost impossible not to take a side anymore. But what is the percentage of corporate support vs religious? Something like 20/80%? What's gonna hurt more?

...but if basic homophobia turns out to be the only thing holding it together then I'm not sure if it's worth keeping. Six of one

A Pyrrhic victory at best I think. I'm sure the churches and various other backers will continue with their own versions of Scouting. It's just the national non-secular organization that will loose out, and maybe it's time for that anyways. The nation is tearing itself apart on so many other issues it might as well tear on this one as well.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by August

This is one of the ideas behind segregating sexes. The concept that nobody need feel bashful (or at least feel less so) around people who don't have a reason to look. I don't see why this concept remains valid for gender but not sexuality when they are basically the same in their effect upon the group.

What mixing genders OR allowing open homosexuality does is completely change the social dynamic of any group by adding a whole new layer of complexity to it and I think in the case of the Boy Scouts it is a level of complexity that is unhealthy and unnecessary. The Scouts are not supposed to be about sex of any kind.

Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. That is what they are there to learn.

I believe anything else is best reserved for learning about elsewhere.

Geesh, I totally agree with August.