Gun Control thread (merged many)

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Lance Corporal Charles Whitman of the USMC, who saved a fellow marine by single-handedly lifting a jeep. Honorably discharged from the USMC, he lived an ordinary life, he was close to his mother, who was undergoing a divorce from her abusive husband, and suffered from severe headaches, resorting to the use of aphetamines to try to dull the pain.
A perfectly normal person, who one day decided to murder his wife and mother, and then take to a tower and snipe his way through 46 people.
His autopsy found a tumour in his brain which may have been responsible for some of his behaviour, but otherwise it remains a mystery how a clever, talented Marine who loved his mother and wife, would suddenly choose to kill both of them and then attack innocent bystanders. Not even Whitman could understand it.

So...how do you stop that? Arrest everyone who used to be a Marine? Or arrest everyone with an IQ over 130? Everyone with a tumour?

He didn't just drop everything one day and shoot a bunch of people, you cut out an entire month between the time he visited psychiatrist Dr. Maurice Heatly and the murders.

From his July 31st suicide note referencing his March 29 visit to the University of Texas Health Center:

However, lately (I can't recall when it started) I have been a victim of many unusual and irrational thoughts. These thoughts constantly recur and it requires a tremendous mental effort to concentrate on useful and progressive tasks. In March when my parents made a physical break I noticed a great deal of stress. I consulted a Dr. Cochrum at the University Health Center and asked him to recommend someone that I could consult with about some psychiatric disorders I felt I had. I talked with a Doctor once for about two hours and tried to convey to him my fears that I felt come overwhelming violent impulses. After one session I never saw the Doctor again, and since then I have been fighting my mental turmoil alone, and seemingly to no avail.

A full month before he killed a Doctor knew what he was planning but couldn't or wouldn't do anything.

From Dr. Maurice Heatly notes:

He readily admits having overwhelming periods of hostility with a very minimum of provocation. Repeated inquiries attempting to analyze his exact experiences were not too successful with the exception of his vivid references to “thinking about going up on the tower with a deer rifle and start shooting people”.

Dr. Heatly told him to make an appointment for next week or to stop by to talk at any time. That never happened, not the following week or the next two weeks after.

There is also evidence that Whitman was abusing drugs like the amphetamine Dexedrine and over the counter pain killers in the months leading to the shooting.

While a tumor may have cause Whitman's murders there were warning signs in the month(s) leading up to it.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

He didn't just drop everything one day and shoot a bunch of people, you cut out an entire month between the time he visited psychiatrist Dr. Maurice Heatly and the murders.

From his July 31st suicide note referencing his March 29 visit to the University of Texas Health Center:
A full month before he killed a Doctor knew what he was planning but couldn't or wouldn't do anything.

From Dr. Maurice Heatly notes:

Dr. Heatly told him to make an appointment for next week or to stop by to talk at any time. That never happened, not the following week or the next two weeks after.

There is also evidence that Whitman was abusing drugs like the amphetamine Dexedrine and over the counter pain killers in the months leading to the shooting.

While a tumor may have cause Whitman's murders there were warning signs in the month(s) leading up to it.

So, who makes the call? A person confesses to having irrational thoughts possibly involving grievous bodily harm and/or murder, you can rope several thousand, if not hundreds of thousands of people into that box. Also the abuse of over the counter painkillers is something undertaken by many, many people, one or the other, or even both combined is not necessarily the signs of someone about to commit mass murder.
With the Doctor's quote that you mentioned there, was that quote taken before or after the mass-murder? Because you will notice that post-event many people will come out of the woodwork to state that the person who undertook the massacre was 'a bit odd', from either playing violent games, being a gun enthusiast, or listening to heavy metal music. It is quite possible that the Doctor only latched onto that sentence after the event when he came to realise the significance of it, at the time it was probably just noted and ignored.

Likewise, if one were to look strictly at the online blogs of Eric Harris and his 'rage against society' one would not have any major alarm bells ringing initially that would not also be put down to a young man going through a difficult stage of his life. In fact, on website statements alone one could probably select several members of this community out for concern that they may become a mass murderer. Obviously, as time went on, there were increasing warning signs from Harris and Klebold, however there is simply not the money or the manpower to read every online blog, to watch every troubled teen or young man, and only those who actually go to seek help are those who make it into the system, which at the moment from what I can tell in the writings post-Sandy Hook, is somewhat lacking in America because of a cutback which took place a while ago.

The fact is, unless you unleash the sort of 'big-brother' style monitoring system on America which pro-gun supporters seem determined to fight against, then you will not stop these sort of things happening because people will fall through the system, then they will get angry with the system, and then they will shoot at the system, taking out anyone who gets in the way, and usually they are young school-age people who see the school as 'part of the system' and thus target it.

So, what do you do? That's the Catch-22.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

With the Doctor's quote that you mentioned there, was that quote taken before or after the mass-murder? Because you will notice that post-event many people will come out of the woodwork to state that the person who undertook the massacre was 'a bit odd', from either playing violent games, being a gun enthusiast, or listening to heavy metal music. It is quite possible that the Doctor only latched onto that sentence after the event when he came to realise the significance of it, at the time it was probably just noted and ignored.

That quote was from the notes Dr. Heatly made of that session before the murders, typewritten and dated March 29, 1966.

You can read them in their entirety here:
http://alt.cimedia.com/statesman/spe...an/heatley.pdf

There is a real difference between listening to heavy metal or playing Doom and what Whitman said. He admitted to hitting his wife, thinking about killing people and would exhibit mood swings mid sentence. Mass-murderer or not that is at least a man who needs help. All he got was "make an appointment", that is a failure right there.

Likewise, if one were to look strictly at the online blogs of Eric Harris and his 'rage against society' one would not have any major alarm bells ringing initially that would not also be put down to a young man going through a difficult stage of his life. In fact, on website statements alone one could probably select several members of this community out for concern that they may become a mass murderer. Obviously, as time went on, there were increasing warning signs from Harris and Klebold, however there is simply not the money or the manpower to read every online blog, to watch every troubled teen or young man, and only those who actually go to seek help are those who make it into the system, which at the moment from what I can tell in the writings post-Sandy Hook, is somewhat lacking in America because of a cutback which took place a while ago.

The fact is, unless you unleash the sort of 'big-brother' style monitoring system on America which pro-gun supporters seem determined to fight against, then you will not stop these sort of things happening because people will fall through the system, then they will get angry with the system, and then they will shoot at the system, taking out anyone who gets in the way, and usually they are young school-age people who see the school as 'part of the system' and thus target it.

So, what do you do? That's the Catch-22.

Well the VA has recently put a huge emphasis on mental health. Every time you call them you get reminded that if you are feeling like you might hurt yourself or someone else to talk to them. They bombard you with pamphlets, gun locks and refrigerator magnets:


You are right about cutbacks. The VA tends to have a budget to do this since Vets have some clout with the politicians. Students (which Whitman was one after all) don't have that kind of clout, they don't have much of a lobby. Students at all levels are not getting any health education not just mental. Students provide an interesting case for the government, you can force them to do stuff (really ask any kid if he wants to go to school), but there is very little in requirements to learn about their mental health. When I went though school we learned the whole score of black history about three times, about how to put a rubber on our junk five or six times (once was in a into to business vocational class... seriously), but never that if we are thinking about hurting someone to go talk to a professional.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

That quote was from the notes Dr. Heatly made of that session before the murders, typewritten and dated March 29, 1966.

You can read them in their entirety here:
http://alt.cimedia.com/statesman/spe...an/heatley.pdf

There is a real difference between listening to heavy metal or playing Doom and what Whitman said. He admitted to hitting his wife, thinking about killing people and would exhibit mood swings mid sentence. Mass-murderer or not that is at least a man who needs help. All he got was "make an appointment", that is a failure right there.

Well the VA has recently put a huge emphasis on mental health. Every time you call them you get reminded that if you are feeling like you might hurt yourself or someone else to talk to them. They bombard you with pamphlets, gun locks and refrigerator magnets:


You are right about cutbacks. The VA tends to have a budget to do this since Vets have some clout with the politicians. Students (which Whitman was one after all) don't have that kind of clout, they don't have much of a lobby. Students at all levels are not getting any health education not just mental. Students provide an interesting case for the government, you can force them to do stuff (really ask any kid if he wants to go to school), but there is very little in requirements to learn about their mental health. When I went though school we learned the whole score of black history about three times, about how to put a rubber on our junk five or six times (once was in a into to business vocational class... seriously), but never that if we are thinking about hurting someone to go talk to a professional.

Good points, and I'm glad to see the VA is doing something about it, but there definitely needs to be some sort of similar service for students, however the trouble is when things like this are implemented they do tend to go over the top, so it'd probably end up with every student getting a psyche evaluation before morning assembly. However, something does need to be done about it, in a sensible manner, instead of this crazed knee-jerk responses that seem to be in vogue on both sides at the moment.

In regards to Whitman, that's a good point, and well put and I concede that the system certainly did fail him, although I honestly think that there are other Whitmans out there who slip through the system because the warning flags don't trigger correctly, however in terms of Veterans, I'm glad to see that there is a stronger focus on it which probably explains why we haven't had a modern Whitman for a while, despite the occasional shoot-outs at bases which are harder to stop because it's inner service and as a part of the service looking towards a counsellor would be looked down upon by both fellow servicemen and many higher ups because of the ethos that you've got to 'man up and put up' that has remained within the service over the years, which to some extent is true but then you've got those who can't do that but are still good soldiers and it all falls apart a little.
Students, on the other hand, yes, they are much less monitored, and I can see that your sexual health classes are not that dissimilar to ours, and yet it does sod all to stop teenage pregnancies but if a similar sort of energy could be put into helping troubled people in a time which is extremely difficult for people who do not fit into a specific frame in school and suffer because of it.
Reminds me of the song done by P.O.D called 'Youth of the Nation', listening to it makes you think and fear for the youth of today and tomorrow.

[yubba]

Undocumented democrats was an error on my part,, the media is not calling them that I know,, I playgerized Rush and I'm deeply sorry can you forgive me I'm so polilically incorrect,,,So what are they calling them now,,???? And after all of this,, all you got is one Marine that did a mass shooting back in 1966.,,wow you rock . So are they still calling the Ft Hood Shooting a work place inceident,,?????

[yubba]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2991974.html maybe you can get your heads wrapped around this,,,I go fly now..

Originally Posted by yubba

I go fly now

Probably with those wings from being Bat-crap-crazy?
(Ya, I'll take a warning for that one )

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by privateer

Probably with those wings from being Bat-crap-crazy?
(Ya, I'll take a warning for that one )

Um...don't do whatever it was you think you did. Consider yourself warned. I think.

[yubba]

Originally Posted by privateer

Probably with those wings from being Bat-crap-crazy?
(Ya, I'll take a warning for that one )

no silly goose il-2 I think I'm an attic
No offence taken,, because you are right and don't you ever forget it. I'm alot calmer than I use to be, but I can still hit a beer can at 50 paces with my 1911 so who's side did you want to be on ??????

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by yubba

Undocumented democrats was an error on my part,,

Indeed so, and so easily diagnosed as such. Perhaps next time it would pay to take a few moments to research what you write before you hit 'Submit Reply' or 'Post thread'?

the media is not calling them that I know,, I playgerized Rush and I'm deeply sorry can you forgive me I'm so polilically incorrect,,,

Politically and grammatically. Are you trying to use morse code with commas?

So what are they calling them now,,????

Immigrants who have entered illegally. It's referring to the action of entering and being in a nation illegally rather than calling the person illegal. Tomato, Tomateo.

And after all of this,, all you got is one Marine that did a mass shooting back in 1966.,,wow you rock

And?

So are they still calling the Ft Hood Shooting a work place inceident,,?????

What should it be? An act of terror? Does that make Sandy Hook an act of terrorism?

[yubba]

Originally Posted by Oberon

What should it be? An act of terror? Does that make Sandy Hook an act of terrorism?

It was a very horrible incedent, and it shouldn't have been used to advance an agenda,, it was done in poor taste, and those people are still being exploited it is sickening. We had the greatest heath care system none to man, that shooter could have been helped, but no let's get goverment involved, well good luck with that.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by yubba

It was a very horrible incedent, and it shouldn't have been used to advance an agenda,,

We can both agree on that.

it was done in poor taste, and those people are still being exploited it is sickening.

Unfortunately in this day and age, and perhaps even in earlier days and ages, people caught up in tragedies are prime targets for political exploitation, from both sides.

We had the greatest heath care system none to man, that shooter could have been helped, but no let's get goverment involved, well good luck with that.

I can't really comment on the US health care system because it confuses me somewhat, but that aside, I think we can both agree that the mental health care system for young men needs to be improved and drastically. Unfortunately without government assistance, that's not likely to happen because it is not a profit making exercise, and private enterprise is only interested in making money, be it from government grants or from charging patients for care. Either which way the patient comes last.
Admittedly, even when government does get involved, it usually tries to run the service to make money when it should be run to mend people, but that's the way the system works, exploitable resources and all that.