Free will. Free will?

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I said my piece on free will, and more besides. Besides that, I blame Tak. he started it!

Here's a free will question for you: In the old days of arranged marriages the choice of whom we would marry was made for us. It was made for political, social or personal reasons, but it was a conscious choice no matter who made it. Today we mostly marry for love. You chose who you would marry. Why did you choose her? Was it because you decided she would make a good mother for your children? Was it because she was of the same social rank as you? Was it because you were interested in the same things?

It could be all or none of those things.

More likely you fell in love. Barring the alternate discussion of whether love or even physical attraction is spiritual, emotional, or chemical, why did you fall in love? Did you have any control over it? Could you have fallen in love with someone else? Probably, but you didn't.

Yes I did.

Was that a conscious choice? So you asked her to marry you because you were in love and couldn't imagine spending your life with anyone else. So where was the free will in that?

You're making a lot of assumptions here Steve. I married my wife at age 49. She isn't my first love and yeah I can well imagine spending my life with someone else.

Same with divorce. People manage to fall out of love. They can choose to remain married in spite of that, but the choice is now to remain miserable or to admit that you aren't who you were. Yes, you get to make a choice, but only between two evils. Is that really a choice at all. You have to make a decision, but free will has less to do with it than acceptance of not-so-nice fate.

So you admit that free will exists even in a Hobsons choice.

It's the same thing with my car. I can't afford any car I want. If fate drops a car in my lap that I both want and can pay for then I'll try to grab it. Two perfect motorcycles have come along in the last week, but somebody grabbed them both before I could. I'll probably end up accepting a compromise, buying a cheap car I don't want. That is indeed my choice, but based on what? I really have no choice in the matter at all.

So where is the free will?

It's mentioned repeatedly throughout your post. Just because you're limited by reality to choices you find objectionable doesn't mean you don't have a choice at all.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

You're making a lot of assumptions here Steve.

I'm not making any assumptions at all. I'm merely asking questions, and pointing out that things aren't always as cut-and-dried as you seem to see them.

So you admit that free will exists even in a Hobsons choice.

From the very start I said that my opinion was the same as yours. I do indeed believe in free will. I also said that it's just opinion, and that there are many opinions on the subject and always have been. Where we disagree is that I believe my opinion to be no more valid (or invalid) than any other, whereas you seem to believe that your opinion is fact, and that's that.

It's mentioned repeatedly throughout your post. Just because you're limited by reality to choices you find objectionable doesn't mean you don't have a choice at all.

Maybe we should submit a thesis on the subject. "After thousands of years of debate, August says we absolutely have free will, and the discussion is henceforth closed."

I like discussing philosophy, and you apparently don't. I can accept that.

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Maybe we should submit a thesis on the subject. "After thousands of years of debate, August says we absolutely have free will, and the discussion is henceforth closed."

Do whatever you want Steve. Just use your imaginary free will and don't drive drunk this Sunday and we'll get along just fine.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

Do whatever you want Steve. Just use your imaginary free will and don't drive drunk this Sunday and we'll get along just fine.

Well, since I don't have a car and I'm allergic to alcohol, I don't think that's going to be a problem.