Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

America is a gun nation. Huh. That's an odd phrase, but a telling one.

I think the gun, in America, has taken on a symbolic meaning of freedom and independence that has been woven into our national fabric even before the founding of our country with the revolutionary war.

edit:
This is why I say even before the revolutionary war, I think this is the beginning of our national image and tapestry.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I think the gun, in America, has taken on a symbolic meaning of freedom and independence that has been woven into our national fabric even before the founding of our country with the revolutionary war.

edit:
This is why I say even before the revolutionary war, I think this is the beginning of our national image and tapestry.

To you, it does. America is a large and diverse nation, and as such the meaning of American freedom and independence varies per person or group. On the Fourth of July I don't think of guns. You do. Both are fine, but I resent people trying to tell me what America means.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

To you, it does. America is a large and diverse nation, and as such the meaning of American freedom and independence varies per person or group. On the Fourth of July I don't think of guns. You do. Both are fine, but I resent people trying to tell me what America means.

Well, On the fourth of July, I don't think of guns either. I think July 4th, 1776, declaration of independence. Do you really think all gun owners think about is guns? If so your sterotyping just as bad as the people I think your admonishing.

Also you can't tell me the pilgrims aren't part of, if not the start of, our national fabric. It's taught in schools, its in the history books, and celebrated every year in November. Just because it isn't in your frame of reference, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Something like this, you might see somewhere during the thanksgiving holiday, every year.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Well, On the fourth of July, I don't think of guns either. I think July 4th, 1776, declaration of independence. Do you really think all gun owners think about is guns? If so your sterotyping just as bad as the people I think your admonishing.

Well then we're back to that narrative that America is a gun nation. Not a nation that permits gun ownership; a gun nation. The connotation is that if you are a real American, you own a gun. You can see language of that sort right here in this very thread, and all over GT for the past two months. That's the kind of narrow interpretation of what it means to be American that has hamstrung the GOP. There are a lot of Americans that don't think that way.

Also you can't tell my the pilgrims aren't part of, if not the start of, our national fabric. It's taught in schools, its in the history books, and celebrated every year in November. Just because it isn't in your frame of reference, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Something you might see somewhere during the thanksgiving holiday, every year.

Then there's the other part of the pilgrim mythos; the part where they were unable to use those guns to feed themselves adequately and were relieved by the Native Americans, (who were then ultimately betrayed, but that is another issue and one that, if I recall, we both agree on). In other words, it is not so simple to say that America is a gun nation. Firearms have been present throughout American history, but they are but one small thread in a tapestry made of millions of equally small threads.

[Ducimus]

Tak, I think were arguing over interpretation of words. I *think* your arguing against the idea that guns define our national identity, when taking issue with the word of "gun nation"; and I would agree, guns do not define who we are.

What i'm arguing is that "The gun", has been with us, and part of our society since it's first beginnings. They don't define who are, but they have always been with us, and because of that, you'll see guns represented in symbolic ways throughout our history. As such, the gun as come symbolic in and of itself, and while not defining the American identity, certainly part of the American tapestry.

EDIT:
And yes i'm well aware of the Pilgrim mythos. I don't agree with all the puritan bible toting symbolism in the first picture I linked, I only use it as an example of how guns are woven into our national fabric.

Strange turn. Gun nations eh?
This nation was also born by the gun, there are still those in the country that believe freedom equals an armalite and a ballot box.
Most people consider those people to be nuts.

[NeonSamurai]

What I find ironic is that Canada was also a gun nation too. Things were not a whole lot different up here (in some ways it was more harsh). Yet the results were quite different in several ways. We don't quite have the same level of paranoia that seems to exist in the states in relationship to government, or are as concerned about possessing firearms. Now it could also be argued that our biggest issue is political apathy (we tend to shrug our shoulders and go back to our daily lives when it comes to our idiot scum sucking politicians).

All countries and cultures have their mythologies, and all have difficulty accepting that these things are myths.

[Tchocky]

The NRA are in the business of fundraising and influence-raising through incessant conspiratorial messaging.

You wouldn't take seriously anyone who talks like an NRA spokesman.

Originally Posted by Wayne LaPierre

“There exists in this country, sadly, a callous, corrupt and corrupting shadow industry that sells and stows violence against its own people through vicious and violent video games.”

Honestly, where do you start with somebody who talks like this?

There are issues with exposing young people to incessant violence, and damaging their psychological health.

Probably more issues due to the let's-all-go-to-war attitude prevalent in the NRA's pet political party, but there are also some in the nation's civilian population.

I'll wager more people lead damaged lives due to being shot, shot at, seeing someone else being shot etc than due to playing too much Grand Theft Auto.

“We have blood-soaked films out there, like ‘American Psycho,’ ‘Natural Born Killers’ that are aired like propaganda loops on splatter days.”

Lots of other countries seem to get along better with similar levels of violent movies. Ever seen Irreversible?

It also makes no sense to blame a violent culture, listing off Call of Duty, Natural Born Killers, Manhunt and American Psycho - if you don't also mention Leyte Gulf, Abu Ghraib, Okinawa, Oklahoma City, Fallujah, Malmedy.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

What I find ironic is that Canada was also a gun nation too. Things were not a whole lot different up here (in some ways it was more harsh). Yet the results were quite different in several ways. We don't quite have the same level of paranoia that seems to exist in the states in relationship to government, or are as concerned about possessing firearms. Now it could also be argued that our biggest issue is political apathy (we tend to shrug our shoulders and go back to our daily lives when it comes to our idiot scum sucking politicians).

All countries and cultures have their mythologies, and all have difficulty accepting that these things are myths.