Stephen King on US gun contols.

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Anyway, secondly, what do people here think is the biggest threat to the freedoms of the American people, the PATRIOT act or an Assault Rifle ban?

A good question but difficult to answer. They're both part of an ongoing government assault on our liberties.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

First things first, Ducimus, love that M1 I do like the M14s, there's something about them that the modern rifles just don't have, perhaps it's that wooden stock.

I think the M1A/M14 has a "soul" so to speak. It's the last wood and steel battle rifle the US ever made. There's just something timeless about wood and steel. I'll have to take another picture of it later if you want. I took it down and put several coats of 100% pure tung oil on the stock. It has that classic look in the wood now more then ever. I also have a new flash surpressor with a bayonet lug and an M6 bayonet i just got yesterday. My intention is to bring the rifle up to its classic configuration. After that my next project will be to get a detatchable scope mount that holds zero, and a scope for deer and elk hunting. As so far im just enjoying using the Iron sights.

Oh yeah, you might like this video from the history channel. Pretty short and quick explanation of the rifle for those who aren't familiar with it.

Anyway, secondly, what do people here think is the biggest threat to the freedoms of the American people, the PATRIOT act or an Assault Rifle ban?

For me, the patriot act, taken by itself is cause for concern, but not any reason to get up in arms over (pun not intended). However, it's not just the patriot act. I look at it as a combination of things:

1. . (Hauling citizens off without any due process.)

2. (Ability to detain citizens indefinitely)

3. Jumping up on the crackpot for a minute, hearing various rumors on the internet about the military practicing corralling and funneling, Dept of homeland security stocking up on millions of rounds hollow point ammo, and other misc crackpottery about Obama replacing top generals with those who would be willing to fire upon American citizens - is not helping. I'm still of the opinion this is tin foil hat stuff, and theres a ton of it out on the internet, but combined with the patriot act and the NDAA, i have to wonder if there is a little truth to some of this stuff. (EDIT: Here's an of something that makes wonder: Paranoia, or real cause for concern? )

4. And now they're going after our most effective means of self defense with the assault weapon ban.


Something's not right here.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

I'm going to assume that you're talking about hunting and self defence here.

Pretty much. I don't advocate killing under any circumstance, other than defense.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I think the M1A/M14 has a "soul" so to speak. It's the last wood and steel battle rifle the US ever made. There's just something timeless about wood and steel. I'll have to take another picture of it later if you want. I took it down and put several coats of 100% pure tung oil on the stock. It has that classic look in the wood now more then ever. I also have a new flash surpressor with a bayonet lug and an M6 bayonet i just got yesterday. My intention is to bring the rifle up to its classic configuration. After that my next project will be to get a detatchable scope mount that holds zero, and a scope for deer and elk hunting. As so far im just enjoying using the Iron sights.

Very nice rifle indeed.
With scope and right ammo it can be very good sniper rifle.
Sink them all...uhh kill"em all.

[Oberon]

Please do put up some more pics Ducimus, it's a timeless classic of a weapon, reminds me a lot of the Garand, versatile, reliable, good rate of fire, and its weight, although a drawback in terms of mobility, is also useful for potential close quarter combat, if you don't have the bayonet attached that is.


In terms of a creep of governmental control, I can understand now the concern which comes around gun control laws as taken along with other restrictive laws which have been passed in order to 'fight terror', unfortunately this is a slippery slope that many people foresaw back when the PATRIOT act was being put together, but hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say. It certainly is a case that we live in uncertain times, and the possibility of this fact being abused to further governmental control cannot be denied, it's not an American thing, I've been concerned about the same thing happening in this country for a while now, particularly when they tried to pass a law to snoop on emails. Fortunately enough public outrage was able to be stirred up to stop it, however with something like firearms, and their links to school shootings...that's a harder thing to rally people behind.
I'm, personally, on the fence, but leaning towards the need to do more for mental health care than the accessibility of firearms, however there is certainly a need to examine the gun culture in depth, if only for gaining additional knowledge of peoples views and how they feel that problems like school shootings should be addressed.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I agree with the point, guns are made to kill, except guns don't kill people, no more than knives, arrows, baseball bats, etc.. 99% of people don't buy guns to kill, the legal purpose of guns is defense, sporting and hunting, the illegal purpose is murder.

I agree, but the two of your "legal purposes" involve killing, or at the very least maiming. As for the "99%", anyone who buys a gun to hunt intends to use it for killing, just no humans. Anyone who buys a gun for defense does indeed realize he might end up using it to kill, though we all hope we won't have to.

I've never shot anybody with any gun I've owned, and as far as I know neither have any of my friends. One friend said the sound of his .45's slide racking as he came up the stairs scared off a burglar on two different occasions, but that if it hadn't he would cheerfully have shot them. Another friend lives in the valley over from us, on a couple acres of horse property. He and his wife each have their own shotguns and handguns, mainly for what he calls "Kitty problems". They get occasional visits from mountain lions. So yes, they call it defense, but if it comes to that it will involve killing, which is why they bought the guns.

What I'm saying is that rather than deny the banners' cry of "Guns are only made for killing!", embrace it. If you live in a place where big cats, bears or bad people can kill you and yours, having a device designed to kill is not a bad thing.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

What I'm saying is that rather than deny the banners' cry of "Guns are only made for killing!", embrace it. If you live in a place where big cats, bears or bad people can kill you and yours, having a device designed to kill is not a bad thing.

The thing is that anyone can own a gun regardless of circumstances and with minimal check.
The right to self defence and gun ownership is very nice on philosophical level but in practice it also bring a lot of problems.
I personally believe that for most it is the matter of owning the toys while the issue of the second amendment and freedom is just nice excuse.
(sort of know what is going on in heads of people who like guns )

Driving cars comes with injuries and death .. same is with guns .
Question is if this is good enough reason for you to continue like this.......
Question is if it helps at the end of the day when every criminal knows that every citizen might be amened...does it help to fight the crime or makes them more violent.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by MH

The thing is that anyone can own a gun regardless of circumstances and with minimal check.

And?

The right to self defence and gun ownership is very nice on philosophical level but in practice it also bring a lot of problems.

Yes it does. So does any other right. Should we get rid of them all just because they cause problems?

I personally believe that for most it is the matter of owning the toys while the issue of the second amandment and freedom is just nice excuse.
(sort of know what is going on in heads of people who like guns )

You are certainly free to believe what you want. Now ask yourself the other question. How many members here who claim to own guns also claim to have ever shot anybody? Do you honestly believe I should be deprived of the only form of home defense I can use anymore because you see problems elsewhere? Yes, there is a problem. It's not caused by the gun, or by 99% of the gun owners.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

You are certainly free to believe what you want. Now ask yourself the other question. How many members here who claim to own guns also claim to have ever shot anybody? Do you honestly believe I should be deprived of the only form of home defense I can use anymore because you see problems elsewhere? Yes, there is a problem. It's not caused by the gun, or by 99% of the gun owners.

The issue is not with people who had not shot someone.
Issue is about the people who did and why they did.
Many of them got their guns legally.I think the most crazy killers did.

You can defend your right to have fun with assault rifles and accept the damage off course.....because that what it is mostly all about.
The matter of personal freedom is also worthy but just maybe it would be reasonable thing to give in a little bit on this issue.

Im not into bashing anyone or anything here.
It is all matter of perspective.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

however there is certainly a need to examine the gun culture in depth, if only for gaining additional knowledge of peoples views and how they feel that problems like school shootings should be addressed.

Regarding the "gun culture", and this is just my opinion, as i am an armchair historian at best; the reason for our affinity for guns is found in the pages of our history.

We could start with the Pilgrims. Aside from them eating dinner with the local Indians, our most common visual of them, is walking through the snowy woods with a Blunderbus. Moving onward in history, we have the American Revolution. Our country was founded, in now small part, on the force of arms. To this day, the silhouette of the Musket, or the Minuteman with his musket brings up thoughts of 1776, red coats, and the fight for freedom.

Yet further in history, we have imagery of the loan Mountain man with his Kentucky rifle. Then there's the expansion westward. Which brings up images of cowboys with six shooters, Winchester lever action rifles (IE "The gun that won the west", etc. In the civil war, i think its no coincidence that MANY of the portaits you'll find people posing with their guns for the camera.

Anyway, my point is you look at our history and you'll find iconic imagery that is woven into our national tapestry and sense of identity. From past to present, the Gun has almost always been in hand. Events in our history (particuarlly the expansion into the American West) have given rise to two traits that are highly valued in our culture, and i think you'll still find them today accross most of America. Those are

1.) Rugged individualism.
2.) Self reliance.

For us i think, the Gun isn't just a weapon, or tool, its a symbol of our freedom, independence, individualism and self reliance. The reasons for that, again, just look deeply in our history and i think you'll see it. To completely exorcise the gun from our culture? I think one would have a better chance getting a snowball through hell.

[Catfish]

^ Ah yes american history. You are perfectly right.

Imagine the indians would have had machine guns, to repel the so-called pilgims being just illegal immigrants from Europe.

Or maybe they could have built a big fence, along the east coast

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ Ah yes american history. You are perfectly right.

Imagine the indians would have had machine guns, to repel the so-called pilgims being just illegal immigrants from Europe.

Or maybe they could have built a big fence, along the east coast

I won't deny our treatment of the Indians was horrendous and unforgivable. You should watch this, you might enjoy it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_West_%28documentary%29

Hell i think all my countryman should watch that, it is eye opening. However, this is another subject, and bears little relevance to the topic at hand.

[Oberon]

My mother says a similar thing, "America was built on the gun". It is a symbol of national pride, of American history, some of the big names, Colt, Smith and Wesson, Winchester, all fine American gun manufacturers, although I do wonder as an offshoot, how many guns in American households are still American made, I hear Glock is a popular choice nowadays. I also wonder if the events that made America had taken place, say, two or three hundred years earlier (incredibly unlikely, I know) would the sword be the national symbol of American resilience?
I do believe at one point in this country, up until quite recent times, it was legal to own a sword, and also there was a requirement that every English citizen own a longbow and do regular training with it, obviously these laws have been closed off now (except possibly the longbow law, not sure about that one) and swords are seen as impractical and unwieldy in the age of the gun. However in terms of the power that the weapon holds, certainly once upon a time, the art of the sword held that level of the gun of today, and it makes you wonder that if some point if the future firearms will become obsolete, perhaps through some sort of magnetic based countermeasure that can be installed in houses, however, I presume that the second amendment is broad enough to cover the use of other arms than firearms?


EDIT: Meant to add this to the end of the original post, if one was to replace Sword with Gun in this song, I think it would still carry weight: http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de...fthesword.html

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by MH

The issue is not with people who had not shot someone.
Issue is about the people who did and why they did.
Many of them got their guns legally.I think the most crazy killers did.

Possibly, and certainly worth looking into.

You can defend your right to have fun with assault rifles and accept the damage off course.....because that what it is mostly all about.
The matter of personal freedom is also worthy but just maybe it would be reasonable thing to give in a little bit on this issue.

Maybe. It certainly needs more honest discussion, and less rabidness from both sides. The biggest honest question from the gun side is whether it would actually do any good. The Australian and Canadian contingent will say yes, it definitely works. The Americans will say the situations are different. I'll say "I don't know". My only worry is that if it doesn't how long do we wait before changing our minds, if that's possible at all.

The other worry is that if it does work the next step will be to try to ban other guns. Or, as a friend of mine once said, "I'll give up my guns when you can absolutely 100% guarantee that you can take away all the bad guys' guns.

Im not into bashing anyone or anything here.
It is all matter of perspective.

I agree, and it needs more discussion. What it doesn't need is more vitriol and the old "I'm right and you're stupid" attitude.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I won't deny our treatment of the Indians was horrendous and unforgivable. You should watch this, you might enjoy it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_West_%28documentary%29

Hell i think all my countryman should watch that, it is eye opening. However, this is another subject, and bears little relevance to the topic at hand.

Cool! I've known about it but never wanted to spend the money. I just looked, and I can watch it for free on Amazon Prime.