US drone war in Pakistan prompts fear and anger

soopaman2 · 10-07-12, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Actually the PRC is having their own problems with Jihadists out in Xinjiang.

The overriding goal of the Chinese government is stability. As soon as any customer (say Jihadists) becomes a liability to their trade relations they will drop them like a sack of rocks.

Fair point, they do put economic growth above everything.

Oberon · 10-07-12, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopaman2

Fair point, they do put economic growth above everything.

Primarily because their growth is built on a house of cards, if stability becomes too much of a problem the whole thing collapses in on itself. They're working towards improving that stability and cementing it into place but at the moment, despite looking so strong that they've wowed the average American to fear them, they are incredibly weak. Their strongest power is soft power, something that they and Russia have gotten very good at using.

soopaman2 · 10-07-12, 06:20 PM

Alot like the house of cards that is currently collapsing here in America and Europe.?

Good thing they can shoot at their protestors, good thing the UN ignores their civil rights violations, then in the same breath condemns N korea, or Iran, who China supports with all their hearts.

Why did we let the defeated nation of China into the UN? Russia at least deserved it, they clawed their way back, China did nothing but accept outside charity through the war, and whine their ways in.

Now the world pays with their currency manipulating, and blatant civil rights violations.

The UN ran on into the Balkan conflict for less, than what they (China) do.

Oberon · 10-07-12, 07:00 PM

We let China in because they won the Chinese civil war

It's a bit hard to ignore a nation of god alone knows how many, in preference to a nation which is composed of a tiny island (I know, I know pot kettle black).
However, the primary reason we let China in, the most important one...was because of the Sino-Soviet split. We let the PRC into the UN, and they act as a counterbalance against the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact lackeys. Furthermore, it prevents them teaming up with the Soviets and becoming a dominant military force.

That worked until the Cold War ended.

Not that Russia and China are exactly BFFs, but they're closer now than the days of Mao and Krushchev, that's for certain, and the likelihood of a 'Bear and the Dragon' scenario remains limited to the works of Clancy.

The American and European house of cards is different to the Chinese one, our economies have been steadily built up over a hundred, to two hundred years of steady industrialisation, admittedly a lot of that industrialisation has been abandoned now, but the groundwork is still there.
China took the short-cut, what we did in two hundred years, they did in two decades. You don't do that without cutting corners, and as any engineer will tell you, you cut corners and the whole thing becomes structurally unstable.
Sticking with that analogy, the American and European houses are houses that are well built but have been neglected, they've lost their shine and they need working on to prevent them from decaying.
The Chinese house is in danger of falling down, it looks great but that's because there's always people working on it to keep it standing. They're shoring it up and in a few years it will be strong enough to stand on its own, but for now a strong gust of wind will knock it over, whereas that same strong gust of wind would probably take out some windows and knock the roofing tiles off the American and European houses, collapse a bit of the roof at worst.
Furthermore, and this is something I think a lot of Americans don't realise...is that China is tied to the US economically, not in the manner that China rules the US as many Americans fear, but that the US rules China, if the US economy falls, Chinas follows shortly afterwards, and the PRC will fall further and hit the bottom harder than America will. The riots in Washington would look like childs play compared to the likelihood of civil war (again) in the PRC, or a succession of military coups. Either way, more blood would be spilt over there than in America.
This does not mean that one should be complacent about American dominance, China is taking its best route...biding its time, only flexing its muscles slightly in regional disputes, trying not to provoke anything that it cannot come out of without damage. This is why there will be nothing other than small coastguard skirmishes over the Senkaku islands, because if Japans economy suffers, then Chinas does too, China and Japan have a BIG trading relationship and China can't risk ruining that, likewise with China and the US, China and Taiwan and in fact, China and most of its neighbours.
So, China bides its time, until it can reach a point where its economy is balanced (which is part of the Five Year Plan beginning this year) and that it can survive a major economic upset...and THEN it will begin any plans it has in the region.
China is a patient nation, it will only act when the conditions favour it, not before, and not after, and right now the conditions do not favour it.

Jimbuna · 10-08-12, 10:20 AM

Quote:

That worked until the Cold War ended.

Far too quick for me

10-07-12, 06:20 PM	#3
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	Alot like the house of cards that is currently collapsing here in America and Europe.? Good thing they can shoot at their protestors, good thing the UN ignores their civil rights violations, then in the same breath condemns N korea, or Iran, who China supports with all their hearts. Why did we let the defeated nation of China into the UN? Russia at least deserved it, they clawed their way back, China did nothing but accept outside charity through the war, and whine their ways in. Now the world pays with their currency manipulating, and blatant civil rights violations. The UN ran on into the Balkan conflict for less, than what they (China) do. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.

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10-07-12, 07:00 PM	#4
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	We let China in because they won the Chinese civil war It's a bit hard to ignore a nation of god alone knows how many, in preference to a nation which is composed of a tiny island (I know, I know pot kettle black). However, the primary reason we let China in, the most important one...was because of the Sino-Soviet split. We let the PRC into the UN, and they act as a counterbalance against the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact lackeys. Furthermore, it prevents them teaming up with the Soviets and becoming a dominant military force. That worked until the Cold War ended. Not that Russia and China are exactly BFFs, but they're closer now than the days of Mao and Krushchev, that's for certain, and the likelihood of a 'Bear and the Dragon' scenario remains limited to the works of Clancy. The American and European house of cards is different to the Chinese one, our economies have been steadily built up over a hundred, to two hundred years of steady industrialisation, admittedly a lot of that industrialisation has been abandoned now, but the groundwork is still there. China took the short-cut, what we did in two hundred years, they did in two decades. You don't do that without cutting corners, and as any engineer will tell you, you cut corners and the whole thing becomes structurally unstable. Sticking with that analogy, the American and European houses are houses that are well built but have been neglected, they've lost their shine and they need working on to prevent them from decaying. The Chinese house is in danger of falling down, it looks great but that's because there's always people working on it to keep it standing. They're shoring it up and in a few years it will be strong enough to stand on its own, but for now a strong gust of wind will knock it over, whereas that same strong gust of wind would probably take out some windows and knock the roofing tiles off the American and European houses, collapse a bit of the roof at worst. Furthermore, and this is something I think a lot of Americans don't realise...is that China is tied to the US economically, not in the manner that China rules the US as many Americans fear, but that the US rules China, if the US economy falls, Chinas follows shortly afterwards, and the PRC will fall further and hit the bottom harder than America will. The riots in Washington would look like childs play compared to the likelihood of civil war (again) in the PRC, or a succession of military coups. Either way, more blood would be spilt over there than in America. This does not mean that one should be complacent about American dominance, China is taking its best route...biding its time, only flexing its muscles slightly in regional disputes, trying not to provoke anything that it cannot come out of without damage. This is why there will be nothing other than small coastguard skirmishes over the Senkaku islands, because if Japans economy suffers, then Chinas does too, China and Japan have a BIG trading relationship and China can't risk ruining that, likewise with China and the US, China and Taiwan and in fact, China and most of its neighbours. So, China bides its time, until it can reach a point where its economy is balanced (which is part of the Five Year Plan beginning this year) and that it can survive a major economic upset...and THEN it will begin any plans it has in the region. China is a patient nation, it will only act when the conditions favour it, not before, and not after, and right now the conditions do not favour it.