J. Stiglitz: The American Dream has become a myth

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Metaphysics and social mobility aren't a very good match. Upward mobility is measurable; AVG could either afford that trip to Disneyworld by scrimping and saving or he could not. Perception and existence do not play into the matter.

For some people - usually people not needing to do that - it is fully okay to have Germans working for one Euro per hour. They furiously demand these slaves that they should do it indeed.

For others, exploiting the desperate situation of people who depend on even that pathetic and abusive loan, is a violation of human dignity.

Some people being offered such slavery jobs say they do not work for that pathetic one Euro, that it is abusive and is - against their dignity.

And some of those living on wellfare accept to get exploited, saying that nevertheless this way they have the feeling of contributing something to society, or that else their days would be boring.

One example situation. Four different perceptions of it.

BTW, one-Euro jobs are a reality in Germany. And they increase by numbers, frighteningly fast.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

For some people - usually people not needing to do that - it is fully okay to have Germans working for one Euro per hour. They furiously demand these slaves that they should do it indeed.

Is that considered dignified? No.

For others, exploiting the desperate situation of people who depend on even that pathetic and abusive loan, is a violation of human dignity.

Is that considered dignified? No.

And some of those living on wellfare accept to get exploited, saying that nevertheless this way they have the feeling of contributing something to society, or that else their days would be boring.

Is that considered dignified? No.

One example situation. Three different perceptions of it.

You are right about that it is one situation. You are wrong about three different perceptions. It is absolute.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

You are wrong about three different perceptions. It is absolute.

That it is that is - your perception. As the examples illustrate, people differ in the assessment of whether it is dignified or not. The observers differ. The affected people differ.

Originally Posted by August

Slaves, really? Sheesh, exaggerate much?

Not at all. Not. At. All. Obviously you do not know about the working conditions in some branches. Not all low-wage jobs are slavery. But some are, and their share is growing rapidly. Also, exploitation of the socially weak/dependent like this is growing, and it kills regular jobs and replaces these regular jobs with low wage jobs. a six-digit number of jobs. Per year.

That the German economy is still going, has its price. And the price gets payed by the employees: socially, financially, and time-wise.

Anyhow, 1 Euro per hour is exploitation equalling slavery if a company makes a business model from such working conditions. The difference to what the subject needs to live in a month, must be payed by the tax payer. The company abuses the tax payer as well, therefore., And then demands to not get stripped of these cheap slave workers, since paying them ordinary wages would mess up their finances, and that would cost "jobs".

Jobs. Calling such infamy "jobs", is the climax of cynism.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That it is that is - your perception. As the examples illustrate, people differ in the assessment of whether it is dignified or not. The observers differ. The affected people differ.

Really? You're going to play that game? And here I was thinking better of you.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

@ Skybird, I'd rather get one Euro an hour then none at all. Well in my case it would be one dollar an hour but its still better then nothing. I worked for a day just to help out my father a his job and I made 90 bucks out of it, it was loud,dirty and backbreaking then again what job in construction isn't?

As for your comparing getting one Euro per hour to slavery doesn't make much sence. I would agree that such a thing is exploitation but the worker is being paid, where as in slavery the worker doesn't get paid, they might but chances of that are slim to none.

Edit: are there even jobs in Europe that have such a low wage? Just wondering.

Edit: are there even jobs in Europe that have such a low wage? Just wondering.

Its the German version of workfare he is on about, people still get their existing unemployment benefits plus an additional 1 or 2 euros an hour tax free if they take the positions.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg

@ Skybird, I'd rather get one Euro an hour then none at all.

See now what I mean about dignity, especially the dignity of work, Takeda?

If an employer makes his business happy by paying you one Euro for your hands' work, he spits in your face. That simple. He could as well give you a toffee by the end of the day, and a clap on the shoulder. Great.

Well in my case it would be one dollar an hour but its still better then nothing.

Wrong answer. Totally wrong. You must be kidding. You get treated like that, and you even excuse it? No dignity in that, man. No self-respect and no honor. You just allow yourself getting exploited and abused.

Or move a bit more far away. Workers in China's electronics factories. Sewers in Bangladesh. Shipwreckers in Karachi. Should they also accept to be told: better the hunger wages you get than getting nothing?

As for your comparing getting one Euro per hour to slavery doesn't make much sence. I would agree that such a thing is exploitation but the worker is being paid, where as in slavery the worker doesn't get paid, they might but chances of that are slim to none.

If soembody abuses the weak position of others to exploit them to the maximum possible, if he tailors hius business to have taxpayer paying social wellfare to his employees, becaseu he does not pay them himself, but gives them 14+ hours per day, bad work, and by the end of the day sendcs therm home with 1 Eurpo per hour, then this abuse compares to slavery. A slave you give bred and water so that he can work for you. Here, you give him not even enough money so that he can buy the bread and water he needs over a day and the shelter he needs for the night. Actually, slaves in ancient Rome and Greece often were parts of the household, integrated members of family structures, and not rarely got released when their master was kind and their service was well.

I talked about dignity. That some of you guys think they need to start a forensic examination between the juristic definition of slavery and exploitive work while I obviously was in generally pointing out a general problem spreading int the West, just illustrates my point that Takeda so far indicates to not having understood. Is the meaning of this word, dignity, so very different in the anglosaxon language and economic conception?

If you guys think it is okay if you bet payed extremely low wages for dirty and heavy work that you nevertheless must accept because there is no other available to you, then this is your problem. I say you are more like whining dogs wagging their tails when being kicked, and self-respect you do show not if you just accept to get sold dramatically under your value. The dignity of man should be inviolable. Even yours. If you do not care for that, then maybe you indeed have no dignity?

Fair wages for fair work. That's what it is about. You owe it to your own self-respect to not accept being treated like a piece of sh!t. If you do accept it, then you deserve it indeed, if Kant was right n his nice quote about worms.

Edit: are there even jobs in Europe that have such a low wage? Just wondering.

We have branches in germay with extremely low wages, of less than 5 Euros per hour. the 1-Euro job is a German speciality, unemployed people getting welfare can work such jobs if they do not get more money than 1 Euro per hour, else they lose welfare. The problem is that no longer only social welfare organisaiton who depend on voluntary work offer such opportunities to work, but that main business has jumped onto the waggon long time ago. They found companies that from all beginning on calculate with extremely low wages and later argue if they would be expected to pay fair wages, they would not survive and the jobs" would be lost. Exploitation as a business model, the social costs are payed by the tax payer. The government also argued that 1 Euro jobs were opportunities for people to get a foot ion the door and getting regular contracts later. But statistics prove with dramatical clearity that this is wrong. Almost everybody who falls through the net and ends as low-wage worker, never gets a chance to reenter the regular job market again. The number of low wage workers thus is dramatically expoloding in Germany. Today, every fifth already is like that. Hundreds of thousands of regular jobs were killed over the past ten years (the initiator has been a claimed socialist, ironically, Gerhard Schröder) and replaced with such low wages jobs. Of course you cannot make a living when beeing payed wages like that. The state has to pay welfare and come upo for the difference. So, private enterprise effectively sacks in the profits, but externalizes wages and fees for its employees to the public tax player.

It a very big social dynamite bar that gets planted there. People are unable to pay insurances. Investing into their future. Their age, pensions are planned to drop to almost only 40% by 2030. In one generation you will see millions and millions of extremely old people in germany who live in bitter poverty, while the small handful of working mid-agers and young ones must pay and pay and pay like crazy, because there will be so few people in working age, and so many old.

It is a premium recipe for complete social desintegration of a society.

My health is such that I can be optimistic to not be around anymore when the **** really hits the fan. The past four years so far - have been NOTHING.

There is no dignity if people get treated like dogs, and their weakness gets exploited as best as possible. No dignity there. None at all. It's bad enough if you are in a situation where you are defenseless against the fist beating you. But if you even take that fist and kiss it, then you are lost, and your life as a human being has been a waste.

[soopaman2]

My question is, can you live off 1 euro an hour in Germany.

In NJ our minimum wage is 7.25$

And with our extreme rents you are lucky to able to pay rent in a crime ridden cesspit, and have enough to eat. Mortgages are cheaper than rents in most cases, but a poor fool with a crap job can never get a loan.

Most the people who make that work only 20 hours a week, as they are part time.
The new thing with companies who offer benefits is hiring part time workers, and working them under the hourly limits on providing basic healthcare. Then slaving them in the process.
Ahhh, funny to all us with money. But not funny when they riot, because they are starving.

"Maybe they should work harder"

Maybe I should spit on you, and laugh...Spare me that one please.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Not at all. Not. At. All. Obviously you do not know about the working conditions in some branches.

I seriously doubt that you do either. Can these workers be legally put in chains and sold? Can they be whipped or killed because their master wills it? If not they are not slaves.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

For some people - usually people not needing to do that - it is fully okay to have Germans working for one Euro per hour. They furiously demand these slaves that they should do it indeed.

Slaves, really? Sheesh, exaggerate much?