J. Stiglitz: The American Dream has become a myth

[AVGWarhawk]

Or whether helping a weak in despair

The weak in despair are helped with social programs. Some to good effect. Others not. Some programs abused.

leaving him the perceived opportunity to try to seek himself is the option more in conformity with that demand

What perceived opportunity? Perhaps we can ask POTUS if his opportunity was perceived or a dream that came true?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

What perceived opportunity? Perhaps we can ask POTUS if his opportunity was perceived or a dream that came true?

Perceived opportunity in the meaning of that what an unaffected bystander may perceive as an opportunity, to the people deeply engaged in that situation may not appear as an opportunity at all, but being exposed as a victim to situational factors one has no control over, and leaves oneself no options where one's own dignity is recognized anymore.

POTUS I did not mention anywhere. I was giving the above posting in a general sense, reacting to the little dispute between Steve and Hawk, to get some heat out of it.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Perceived opportunity in the meaning of that what an unaffected bystander may perceive as an opportunity, to the people deeply engaged in that situation may not appear as an opportunity at all, but being exposed as a victim to situational factors one has no control over, and leaves oneself no options where one's own dignity is recognized anymore.

Metaphysics and social mobility aren't a very good match. Upward mobility is measurable; AVG could either afford that trip to Disneyworld by scrimping and saving or he could not. Perception and existence do not play into the matter.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Metaphysics and social mobility aren't a very good match. Upward mobility is measurable; AVG could either afford that trip to Disneyworld by scrimping and saving or he could not. Perception and existence do not play into the matter.

For some people - usually people not needing to do that - it is fully okay to have Germans working for one Euro per hour. They furiously demand these slaves that they should do it indeed.

For others, exploiting the desperate situation of people who depend on even that pathetic and abusive loan, is a violation of human dignity.

Some people being offered such slavery jobs say they do not work for that pathetic one Euro, that it is abusive and is - against their dignity.

And some of those living on wellfare accept to get exploited, saying that nevertheless this way they have the feeling of contributing something to society, or that else their days would be boring.

One example situation. Four different perceptions of it.

BTW, one-Euro jobs are a reality in Germany. And they increase by numbers, frighteningly fast.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

For some people - usually people not needing to do that - it is fully okay to have Germans working for one Euro per hour. They furiously demand these slaves that they should do it indeed.

Is that considered dignified? No.

For others, exploiting the desperate situation of people who depend on even that pathetic and abusive loan, is a violation of human dignity.

Is that considered dignified? No.

And some of those living on wellfare accept to get exploited, saying that nevertheless this way they have the feeling of contributing something to society, or that else their days would be boring.

Is that considered dignified? No.

One example situation. Three different perceptions of it.

You are right about that it is one situation. You are wrong about three different perceptions. It is absolute.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

You are wrong about three different perceptions. It is absolute.

That it is that is - your perception. As the examples illustrate, people differ in the assessment of whether it is dignified or not. The observers differ. The affected people differ.

Originally Posted by August

Slaves, really? Sheesh, exaggerate much?

Not at all. Not. At. All. Obviously you do not know about the working conditions in some branches. Not all low-wage jobs are slavery. But some are, and their share is growing rapidly. Also, exploitation of the socially weak/dependent like this is growing, and it kills regular jobs and replaces these regular jobs with low wage jobs. a six-digit number of jobs. Per year.

That the German economy is still going, has its price. And the price gets payed by the employees: socially, financially, and time-wise.

Anyhow, 1 Euro per hour is exploitation equalling slavery if a company makes a business model from such working conditions. The difference to what the subject needs to live in a month, must be payed by the tax payer. The company abuses the tax payer as well, therefore., And then demands to not get stripped of these cheap slave workers, since paying them ordinary wages would mess up their finances, and that would cost "jobs".

Jobs. Calling such infamy "jobs", is the climax of cynism.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That it is that is - your perception. As the examples illustrate, people differ in the assessment of whether it is dignified or not. The observers differ. The affected people differ.

Really? You're going to play that game? And here I was thinking better of you.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Not at all. Not. At. All. Obviously you do not know about the working conditions in some branches.

I seriously doubt that you do either. Can these workers be legally put in chains and sold? Can they be whipped or killed because their master wills it? If not they are not slaves.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

For some people - usually people not needing to do that - it is fully okay to have Germans working for one Euro per hour. They furiously demand these slaves that they should do it indeed.

Slaves, really? Sheesh, exaggerate much?