J. Stiglitz: The American Dream has become a myth

soopaman2 · 10-02-12, 10:35 PM

Exactly August, I am not advocating a free ride, but advoacating that the poor, and less wealthy have a chance.

Like if you want welfare, you have to work community service, and pee in a cup. (I can tell you stories, most already read them from me)

I can ask my rich daddy for trade school or college money. (not me, but alot, the born rich are typically lazier anyways)

But what chance does Tyrone from some craphole project has? A loan he can never pay back (if he even gets it), just feeding the banking beast.

He may want to change, but his lot in life is based on how he was born.

Kinda like what we fought against when we kicked britain out of here. (the new monarch is now the dollar, and it is infallible over all human life )

We may as well be India, with the Caste system, modern paupers have zero shot... This is not the 50s, and American exceptionalism is long long dead.

August · 10-03-12, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopaman2

But what chance does Tyrone from some craphole project has? A loan he can never pay back (if he even gets it), just feeding the banking beast.

He has the same chance for advancement that Americans have always had. The problem nowadays is that we set unrealistic expectations for ourselves. If we can't go from a craphole to a mansion by the time we turn 30 then many of us don't even try.

The folks who manage it, via sports or acting or just plain good luck, they are the ones we see on TV that everyone looks to and says "that's what i'm gonna do", well you can't. The truth is that very few people can go from the bottom of the barrel to the top in one lifetime. Maybe one in a million.

Instead of taking loans to get some useless degree that he can't capitalize upon, Tyrone would be better off getting training in something he can, like a trade. If, in the course of his life he can get his family out of the craphole and into a modest home then he has realized the American dream. His kids will be able to take it to the next level and their kids yet another.

You build upon what you start with and your sons and daughters build upon that and so on and so on. That's why a functioning and cohesive family environment is so important and it's something I see immigrant families do well and many of us natives do not.

Betonov · 10-03-12, 12:29 PM

Let's say I move to the US of A:

5 years ago I was 21. No work experiance and a high school education that no-one wants to employ in this country. The American dream would be a myth for me. At best I'd work as a field hand or taxi driver. I'm too ugly for a waiter.

Today I am 21. Same education but 5 years experience in boat construction and plastic working. I'd get a job in plastic or boat industry and slowly work my way up. The American dream would be a reality, but I'd have to swim in sweat to get there.

If I had gone into study of public relations, management or some other over saturated profession I'd have to rely on my experience in plastic and still had to work my ass off. I'd be an educated manual worker (obicni fizicki radnik as we say here)

When I graduate in nautical engineering I'd find a decent payed job at sipping companies and work my way up. The American dream would be a reality and wouldn't need that much sweat since I have an education that job markets are looking for.

The American dream is not dead. You just have to work hard and work SMART on it.

AVGWarhawk · 10-03-12, 12:48 PM

Quote:

The American dream is not dead. You just have to work hard and work SMART on it.

The same formula that has worked for decades.

Sailor Steve · 10-03-12, 01:08 PM

I think Mr. Stiglitz misunderstands what the 'American Dream' is. It was never about making it from the bottom to the top, as he puts it. What it has always been is the ideal of being the best you can be, and the freedom to do so. Two hundred years ago every European was born into a class, as they had been for the thousand years before that, and they were a part of that class and could never be otherwise. A nobleman couldn't become a peasant any more than a peasant could become a nobleman. In America if you didn't like the job you had you could learn to be something else. It may not have raised your social position or made your life better, but if there was something else you wanted to do you were guaranteed the freedom to do it.

Most of Europe learned from that example, and when Mr. Stiglitz points out that many Europeans have it better today it is because they were intrigued by what had happened in one country and strove to emulate it. It has always been rare for someone born poor to become rich, but it did happen, and still does. It's true that most of us will never be a famous actor, rock star or software developer, but people do still achieve those. On the other hand it's not uncommon for people to rise to the top of the jobs they do have. The dream exists because in the 'Old Country' there was a time when you couldn't do that. There are still places in the world where you can't, and for the people there the American Dream still lives, though these days it has become a dream that can be fulfilled in much of the Western World, which makes America not stand out as it once did.

I say that's a good thing.

10-02-12, 10:35 PM	#1
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	Exactly August, I am not advocating a free ride, but advoacating that the poor, and less wealthy have a chance. Like if you want welfare, you have to work community service, and pee in a cup. (I can tell you stories, most already read them from me) I can ask my rich daddy for trade school or college money. (not me, but alot, the born rich are typically lazier anyways) But what chance does Tyrone from some craphole project has? A loan he can never pay back (if he even gets it), just feeding the banking beast. He may want to change, but his lot in life is based on how he was born. Kinda like what we fought against when we kicked britain out of here. (the new monarch is now the dollar, and it is infallible over all human life ) We may as well be India, with the Caste system, modern paupers have zero shot... This is not the 50s, and American exceptionalism is long long dead. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.

10-03-12, 01:08 PM	#5
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I think Mr. Stiglitz misunderstands what the 'American Dream' is. It was never about making it from the bottom to the top, as he puts it. What it has always been is the ideal of being the best you can be, and the freedom to do so. Two hundred years ago every European was born into a class, as they had been for the thousand years before that, and they were a part of that class and could never be otherwise. A nobleman couldn't become a peasant any more than a peasant could become a nobleman. In America if you didn't like the job you had you could learn to be something else. It may not have raised your social position or made your life better, but if there was something else you wanted to do you were guaranteed the freedom to do it. Most of Europe learned from that example, and when Mr. Stiglitz points out that many Europeans have it better today it is because they were intrigued by what had happened in one country and strove to emulate it. It has always been rare for someone born poor to become rich, but it did happen, and still does. It's true that most of us will never be a famous actor, rock star or software developer, but people do still achieve those. On the other hand it's not uncommon for people to rise to the top of the jobs they do have. The dream exists because in the 'Old Country' there was a time when you couldn't do that. There are still places in the world where you can't, and for the people there the American Dream still lives, though these days it has become a dream that can be fulfilled in much of the Western World, which makes America not stand out as it once did. I say that's a good thing. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

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10-03-12, 12:29 PM	#3
Betonov Navy Seal Join Date: May 2009 Location: Slovenia Posts: 8,647 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	Let's say I move to the US of A: 5 years ago I was 21. No work experiance and a high school education that no-one wants to employ in this country. The American dream would be a myth for me. At best I'd work as a field hand or taxi driver. I'm too ugly for a waiter. Today I am 21. Same education but 5 years experience in boat construction and plastic working. I'd get a job in plastic or boat industry and slowly work my way up. The American dream would be a reality, but I'd have to swim in sweat to get there. If I had gone into study of public relations, management or some other over saturated profession I'd have to rely on my experience in plastic and still had to work my ass off. I'd be an educated manual worker (obicni fizicki radnik as we say here) When I graduate in nautical engineering I'd find a decent payed job at sipping companies and work my way up. The American dream would be a reality and wouldn't need that much sweat since I have an education that job markets are looking for. The American dream is not dead. You just have to work hard and work SMART on it.