How to shoot down an F-22

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

I'll take the ten, please. Unless one of your aircraft can carry eleven long range AAMs.

If they used the external hard points (there are four each capable of carrying 2 AIM-120s plus a tank) the F-22 could carry 14 AMRAAMs and 4 Sidewinders.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

If they used the external hard points (there are four each capable of carrying 2 AIM-120s plus a tank) the F-22 could carry 14 AMRAAMs and 4 Sidewinders.

If you can afford to deploy it in a scenario where there's a greater than 20% chance of it being shot at effectively.
If you can actually field enough of them to make a difference.

I think that there is a real danger in this current economic and technological climate of the US pricing itself out of the weapons market. Not in exports but for its own airforce. Not just the US but the UK as well, how often does it happen in both our countries that a specific number of a unit is set down on paper when the plans are drawn up, but when it actually comes to making it, the numbers are cut and cut and cut because we just can't afford it.
I guess that's the problem with privatised military firms, they don't work unless you throw billions of dollars at them.

[MH]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-debut-373312/

OK so this proves that Typhoon just may be at least close to Raptor in visual contact engagement in terms of performance.
I think it does complements Typhoon but still proves nothing because Raptor pilot for most part can chose terms and conditions of the fight due to the capabilities of his aircraft.

[Herr-Berbunch]

And how does such an external weapons load reduce the stealthiness and effective range, amongst other things like handling?

[Skybird]

This reminds me of that several years ago, the Eurofighter had quite some problems, the German planes were grounded when the weather was cold, since the engines were not reliable or could not be ignited at colder weather, and the Germans had no weapons for their fighters back then.

Has anyone a credible link to how the status today is regarding these and other issues? I must admit I am out of touch with the German Eurofighter program. They surely had plans to arm the planes , but has it acctually happened meanwhile? If war would break out next month, would the planes be operational under combat conditions?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

And how does such an external weapons load reduce the stealthiness and effective range, amongst other things like handling?

Stealthiness would probably make it equal to say... the Typhoon.

Handling, well you can ditch them when entering a dogfight (they would be the weapons used first so the rails would most likely be empty) so it would not effect it much over the F-22 baseline.

For effective range it would increase it, those pylons (at least the two inboard ones) apparently can also carry a droptank. So it would increase the range of the aircraft.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by MH

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-debut-373312/

OK so this proves that Typhoon just may be at least close to Raptor in visual contact engagement in terms of performance.
I think it does complements Typhoon but still proves nothing because Raptor pilot for most part can chose terms and conditions of the fight due to the capabilities of his aircraft.

Ah, thank you for the link, MH. This article gives a better overall impression of what both the USAF and Luftwaffe think.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

If they used the external hard points (there are four each capable of carrying 2 AIM-120s plus a tank) the F-22 could carry 14 AMRAAMs and 4 Sidewinders.

All my (panic google) reading suggests weapons or a tank, and these definitely removes the stealth option. And, apparently, history proves that aircraft with a requirement for external stores of 14,000-15,000 lb only carry combat loads of 4,000 - 8,000 lbs. I could, of course, just be typing a load of rubbish.

[the_tyrant]

Maybe I'm wrong for using starcraft logic, but why can't the f22 be used solely on longer engagement ranges?

I mean, high cruise speed + stealth + dependence on long range missiles

Wouldn't this work as a "sniper" kind of thing? aka, fire off the missiles at long range, than use the stealth and speed to get away

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

Maybe I'm wrong for using starcraft logic, but why can't the f22 be used solely on longer engagement ranges?

I mean, high cruise speed + stealth + dependence on long range missiles

Wouldn't this work as a "sniper" kind of thing? aka, fire off the missiles at long range, than use the stealth and speed to get away

TBH, I thought that's what it was primarily designed for anyway

Mind you, reality often interferes. The F-4 was designed much around the same logic, and yet in actual combat wasn't able to follow through, largely because the situation dictated it having to go over enemy territory, and its missiles turned out to be not what they were made out to be. The F-22 has every chance of falling into the same type of reality in combat.

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by CCIP

TBH, I thought that's what it was primarily designed for anyway

Mind you, reality often interferes. The F-4 was designed much around the same logic, and yet in actual combat wasn't able to follow through, largely because the situation dictated it having to go over enemy territory, and its missiles turned out to be not what they were made out to be. The F-22 has every chance of falling into the same type of reality in combat.

Well in this case, wouldn't the f22's high speeds (I believe the only fighter with a supersonic cruise speed?) allow it to avoid enemy fighters better than the f4? especially considering that the f4 never had a crushing speed advantage over other fighters.

Or, would it be a good tactic to send other fighters with good short range performance to protect the f22?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

Or, would it be a good tactic to send other fighters with good short range performance to protect the f22?

If only we had some kind of light weight stealthy fighter-bomber to assist the F-22. Something with a highly networked computer system allowing it to operated as part of an integrated team...

[CaptainMattJ.]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

Well in this case, wouldn't the f22's high speeds (I believe the only fighter with a supersonic cruise speed?) allow it to avoid enemy fighters better than the f4? especially considering that the f4 never had a crushing speed advantage over other fighters.

Or, would it be a good tactic to send other fighters with good short range performance to protect the f22?

This. Personally i agree that the f-22 is a huge mistake. unless they can seriuosly scale down the price, its way, way, way, WAy too expensive to buy an F22. We could buy 55-60 abrams, a battle proven monster of a tank, or we can buy 1 unproven, overpriced, high tech machine that is 100% better than it needs to be. I dont trust anything that completely collapses under technology failure. Because technology fails. Technology fails often. and technology fails at the worst possible moments. The only thing we can, and should do with the F-22s we already have, is send one or two in formation with other aircraft like the F-15C, and youve got yourself one hell of an air superiority force.

What the USAF needs, i believe currently, is NOTHING. we have aircraft now being mothballed that are PERFECTLY GOOD, able, and incredibly cheap in comparison. In the future, we need to revert back to the teachings of the F-15, and build a maneuverable, low-cost, reliable airplane designed specifically for air to air combat. trying to do everything presents one of two problems (if not both). You either have no money left for the rest of your military, or you dont do anything particularly well and the plane gets swatted by planes designed for a specific role.

[Karle94]

The F-15 is not a cheap warplane. Far from it. If the F-15 was cheap, there would be no reason at all for the existense of the F-16. Which is actually a better dogfighter than the F-15 and almost any other plane in the world. The F-15 is being updated, or should I say rebuilt as the Silent Eagle. A stealthy version of the F-15. A cheaper alternative to the F-22 and F-35.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

All my (panic google) reading suggests weapons or a tank...

Some sources say 'yea' some say 'nay'.

The F-15 could for example carry AIM-120s and tanks on its external pylons. That pylon had a tank with two LAU-128 hardpoints, the F-22 uses the same hardpoints for its external AAMs.

The USAF might not be doing it now, but they could do it very easily.