German court bans circumcision

[MH]

Originally Posted by Penguin

aeehm, you know this has been the point made by "our" side all the time?

Sure.
Still doing it on 8th day is the best solution if done in proper way...most people don't mind it in general when its done to them as infants but have "ouch" feeling about the issue at later age.


I got to know some who people who circumcised at older age and it wasn't very encouraging.
On ethical level the argument stands on practical not so much.
Also the practical side is compatible with jewish religious practice.

Line should be drawn what is parents responsibility and what is not....but actually thinking about it there are countless thing that government can legislate for the "greater good".



...............

[Penguin]

Well let's see how it will play out in the German parliament, in about 973 days when those lazy asses will meet the next time.

On a lighter note:

it is very likely that our politicians will give in to the lobbying of one of the most powerful, sinister and ruthless groups in the world.
They have people in any government, put pressure on anyone who disagreess and have the financial means to do the fight.
They have been around since a long time and certainly try to influence the discussion with their pro-circumcision-agenda....
























The Zipper industry

[Skybird]

Today: German association of children'S doctors also join the rows of those criticising that physical violence against children should be legalised due to relgious demands, warning of trivializing the basic Law which not only mentions the freedom of relgious practice (article 3), but also rules that every person (that includes children of religious stoneagers) shall have the right to free developement of his personality (that alone should be enough to rule out religious indoctrination of small children) as long as this does not violate the freedom of others, the constitutional order or the moral law, and that every person has the right to physical integrity.

German: http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...ellisiert.html

And Israel, there they have a crisis now due to the state wanting to delete religious priviliges for ultraorthdox so far enjoying to be freed from serving in the armed forces or from doing a replacement service. The secularism movement there seems to grow slowly but constantly, too, maybe in coincidence with government's interest to bring up enough conscripts, but still - or is it simply human reason?

But lets not forget, the circumcision issue in Germany is not about Jews only, but about Muslims as well.

I fear politicians will mess this up again, like they almost always tend to do. So in the very logn run Joey may be right with his expectations. But it probably will take much longer time. And who knows, maybe there will be a surprise in the end. The minister of justice, a liberal FDP woman, again put a foot on the brake today.

I think it is not by chance that the desert dogmas picked the most sensible part of the body for their sick rituals. The genitals are linked to human'S most intense feeling and feeling fo shame and moral vulnerability as well, and implementing huge pain on these necessarily cause an according traumatising expoerience that in cases of babies maybe get deeply buried in their subconmsciousness, but nevertheless still is there, while Musli8m boys the age of 8 not only feel the pjysical pain and the misery od the days after that, but often associate the procedure with intense fear, and - maybe even more important - shame of being manipulated in such a cruel way at their genitals and afterwards walkling for many days like a drunken donkey. Then there is the issue of the betrayed trust of the child in his parents, whcih is true for babies as well as 8 year old. The exprerience of being def3encelessly handed over to the act by the parents. A deep feeling of betrayal. I think relgions picked this to anchor deep the experience of shame and helplessness in the human soul, by that making the individual feeling exposed and weak and thus depending even m ore on the religion'S claim of being the answer. Hm. My English finds its limits here to express this in adequate clearness what I mean. Sorry. Maybe you get an idea, I do not know how to put it better in English.

I saw three times young boy who just had the procedure behi8n them, all three times in Turkey. Let me just say this: they were noeithe rhappy, nor proud, but they gave the impression of feeling hurt, and they were scared. They amslo tried to hide, since they could not walk "like a man/boy", but looked very funny in the way they stumbled around. A very sad sight., the sight of abused innocence. The parents acted as if they did not realise it, and big party was going on.

I always have had the impresison that the whole horror show is not about the children at all - just about the damn adults.

This issue should be settled on article 2 of the German constitution. And the uncompormised decdflration of that every religion is equal before the law like everybody else is, and that noi relgion shall be granted special rights for the mere reason of it being "religion". Laws shall never be bend or distorted on behalf of religions, no matter which one. And the German laws on physical violence against children and parents absuing or mistrteating their children, are clear. They must be enforced against "religious parents" as well - like they get enforced against secular or antireligious parents as well.

[Red October1984]

I first read the title of this thread. I next thought. "The hell i just read?" Then i thought, "Who wants to sit down and talk about circumcision with a bunch of other guys......."


Im sorry if this is ruining this thread, but i just have to ask one thing.


WHY?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

WHY?

its a conspiracy to turn Jews and Muslims into wankers.

or is it simply human reason?

Human reason...integration also equality in right and responsibilities.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MH

Human reason...integration also equality in right and responsibilities.

Very well then - and certainly better than if it were only parties' powerpolitical bluffs as usual.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I first read the title of this thread. I next thought. "The hell i just read?" Then i thought, "Who wants to sit down and talk about circumcision with a bunch of other guys......."


Im sorry if this is ruining this thread, but i just have to ask one thing.


WHY?

Sorry, but it takes much more to ruin a thread in GT.

Let' say I'm getting easily passionate when it is about freedom versus religion, and equality of all before the law versus religious claim to get specially exempted from valid laws but to enjoy undeserved priviliges instead.

[Red October1984]

If it is a matter of religion, I shall not stand in anybody's way. I shouldve read more closely.


I will never restrict anybody's religious beliefs if i ever became a government employee. Unlike this BS that Obama is tossing around here in America. HE IS SCREWING EVERYTHING UP!! I have yet to meet somebody who thinks he is a good president.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

HE [Obama] IS SCREWING EVERYTHING UP!!

This implies that things were working before he was elected.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

If it is a matter of religion, I shall not stand in anybody's way. I shouldve read more closely.


I will never restrict anybody's religious beliefs if i ever became a government employee. Unlike this BS that Obama is tossing around here in America. HE IS SCREWING EVERYTHING UP!! I have yet to meet somebody who thinks he is a good president.

Thank you very much for your deep and profound analysis of the topic.
Hey, there's no need to read the thread or even the OP's article before replying. Why not inform the people in the other threads, too? I think the lolcat thread could also need an "Obama screws everything up" posting.
Protip: You can certainly convince more people if you don't only use capslock, also play a little with the font size. This way your message is clearly heard.

Please inform us in case you should ever work on a Sunday, so that we can put you to death. Exodus 35:2 says so and you don't want to stand in the way of religious beliefs, do you?

Or is your anger now that you see the flaw in your argument through the example of absurdity?

What is worse is the absurdity he now object to being used as a comparison is one that he was using as a comparison already in the topic.
Does that make it self evident that the reasoning of Skybird in this matter is fundamentally flawed?

Earlobes - I thought I was dreaming when reading that...

Maybe you was dreaming when you brought it up first.
Come to think of it including your very first post on the topic how many times have you made that exact comparison you are now running from?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Sorry, but it takes much more to ruin a thread in GT.

Let' say I'm getting easily passionate when it is about freedom versus religion, and equality of all before the law versus religious claim to get specially exempted from valid laws but to enjoy undeserved priviliges instead.

Be careful not to turn liberal democracy into your own sharia...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MH

Be careful not to turn liberal democracy into your own sharia...

Oh, I pretty much leave others alone - as long as they do their blakc magic stuff to themselves only, not to others, not to state or society - and not to their children. The right of parents to educate their children the way they want ends where they do violate the legitimate rights and interests of the child and abuse it. This issue in this thread is about a 3000 year-long era of intellectual darkness while this abscence of light should excuse to cut off body parts from children. Maybe this is because in darkness you cannot see?

BTW, what many people do not seem to know is: neither in Islam nor in Judaism the circumcision of babies and children is a religious "must". It is not.