Why the Submarine is the unsung hero at Midway -- true story.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Admiral Von Gerlach

Yamamoto counted on the Japanese Diplomatic service to serve the Declaration of War BEFORE the attack on Pearl, when they failed in this the attack was rendered a disaster, no matter what the results were. He knew that and knew what the result would be.

The 14-part message which the Japanese diplomats tardily delivered to ambassador Hull on December 7th has been characterized as a declaration of war, but it was much more ambiguous than that. The message simply repeated Japan's position, rejected the American position, and expressed the view that further negotiation seemed pointless. While this was certainly ominous, and its significance was not lost on the American cryptanalysts or administration, the note did not formally declare war or even present an ultimatum.

Recently, Japanese historian Iguchi Takeo has cast further light on the 14-part message with the discovery of Japanese archival material showing that the Japanese Army and Navy insisted that the language of the 14-part message be toned down to deliberately avoid giving any warning of the attack on Pearl Harbor. He further speculates that the transmissions to the Washington embassy from the Tokyo Foreign Office were deliberately garbled to ensure that the embassy staff would be unable to deliver a clean copy to the Americans before the attack took place. Iguchi also found a December 7 entry in the war diary saying, "our deceptive diplomacy is steadily proceeding toward success." Of this, Iguchi said, "The diary shows that the army and navy did not want to give any proper declaration of war, or indeed prior notice even of the termination of negotiations and they clearly prevailed."

A formal declaration of war was printed on the front page of Japan's newspapers in the evening edition of December 8, but not delivered to the U.S. government until the day after the attack.

Frankly, even a formal declaration of war had been delivered a half hour before the attack I think it would have made little difference. Which scenario is more despicable? Someone attacking you and saying "I'm declaring war on you" or someone declaring war on you and then punching you in the mouth immediately after? It's a sneak attack versus a sucker punch.

By the way if anyone wishes to read the 14-part message that was meant to be on Cordell Hull's desk before the attack it's here...

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/Dip/Fourteen.html

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

By the way if anyone wishes to read the 14-part message that was meant to be on Cordell Hull's desk before the attack it's here...

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/Dip/Fourteen.html

Thanks for the link. I've never read the actual document, and you're right - there is nothing there that even looks like a declaration of war, or even an ultimatim. There is a lot of nonsense ("Stabilizing the region..."). The link within to other documents is great as well.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

The 14-part message which the Japanese diplomats tardily delivered to ambassador Hull on December 7th has been characterized as a declaration of war, but it was much more ambiguous than that. The message simply repeated Japan's position, rejected the American position, and expressed the view that further negotiation seemed pointless. While this was certainly ominous, and its significance was not lost on the American cryptanalysts or administration, the note did not formally declare war or even present an ultimatum.

Recently, Japanese historian Iguchi Takeo has cast further light on the 14-part message with the discovery of Japanese archival material showing that the Japanese Army and Navy insisted that the language of the 14-part message be toned down to deliberately avoid giving any warning of the attack on Pearl Harbor. He further speculates that the transmissions to the Washington embassy from the Tokyo Foreign Office were deliberately garbled to ensure that the embassy staff would be unable to deliver a clean copy to the Americans before the attack took place. Iguchi also found a December 7 entry in the war diary saying, "our deceptive diplomacy is steadily proceeding toward success." Of this, Iguchi said, "The diary shows that the army and navy did not want to give any proper declaration of war, or indeed prior notice even of the termination of negotiations and they clearly prevailed."

A formal declaration of war was printed on the front page of Japan's newspapers in the evening edition of December 8, but not delivered to the U.S. government until the day after the attack.

...

I never heard of this before, but it does not surprise me. If you plan a knockout blow that rests heavily on having complete surprise, it stands to reason, you are not going to risk tipping your hand.

All this makes me wonder: What might have changed if the US had somehow gotten a 2 hour warning of the attack? Would that have been enough to significantly change the outcome?