The real issue at hand in the Limbaugh/Fluke controversy

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

No, no. Let's get rid of it. But first, let's get rid of that 1.45% of my annual pay that I put out for some senior's heart medication. It's not my fault that he ate red meat three meals a day for 30 years. Common sense indeed.

Ultimately, I would like to see us do that. Now that doesn't mean you can't choose to contribute if you wanted to - but right now, the entire "social net" is compulsory for any working citizen. The government doesn't offer you the choice of whether you want to be a part of providing for others. It mandates your "social responsibility", whether you agree with it or not. The problem is, not only does it mishandle the funds it takes from you and I, it also can increasingly require our "level of social responsibility" to be greater and greater. All without us being able to do anything about it.

I know we will likely disagree on this, but I don't believe that mandating citizen social responsibility is the proper job or role of government. Thus, I would like to see all such mandates end.

I am realistic enough to know that isn't going to happen, and even if it were it would need decades to phase into place. But I think the trend of the people becoming more and more reliant on government to control what they get and how they get it is unhealthy for the cause of liberty and freedom.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I know we will likely disagree on this, but I don't believe that mandating citizen social responsibility is the proper job or role of government. Thus, I would like to see all such mandates end.

I don't think that we would disagree about the need of government to remove itself from social responsibility. I think that we would disagree about how far it would go, and not in the way that you might anticipate that we would disagree. I am all for the removal of all safety nets. I am also for the legalization of all drugs, the end of restriction of marriage as it pertains to same-sex marriage or even polygamy and the full availabilty of abortion in any and all cases. To me, civil liberties are just as important as fiscal liberties.

It is here that I disagree with the Republican party. When they talk about 'liberty', they mean almost exclusively finance. Civil liberty is not now, nor has it been for most of the past century, a priority. This is a party that gave us the so-called Patriot Act, opposes abortion as part of it's party platform, attempts to legislate theological morality and stands in the way of gay rights. It is the polar opposite of the Democratic party, which is in favor of civil rights, but wants to control your money. I want a party that holds liberty in a much broader light.

[August]

I think there are some things that should not be market based. National defense, law enforcement and health care are three of the big ones.

Because of the thirst for profit the cost of even basic health care has risen beyond the ability of most people to pay. Even when they can afford insurance they are routinely denied and/or delayed compensation, sometimes right into the grave. The only solution may be a national health care system.

But if that's the way we're going to go then it has to be complete. NHS hospitals, clinics, doctors, nurses, technicians and labs. The whole enchilada. This idea of the government telling me I have to purchase health care insurance from a private company is crazy. It's like they're holding me down while the insurance company robs me.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

I think there are some things that should not be market based. National defense, law enforcement and health care are three of the big ones.

Because of the thirst for profit the cost of even basic health care has risen beyond the ability of most people to pay. Even when they can afford insurance they are routinely denied and/or delayed compensation, sometimes right into the grave. The only solution may be a national health care system.

But if that's the way we're going to go then it has to be complete. NHS hospitals, clinics, doctors, nurses, technicians and labs. The whole enchilada. This idea of the government telling me I have to purchase health care insurance from a private company is crazy. It's like they're holding me down while the insurance company robs me.

Well said. The problem with Obama's current health care "reform" mess is that it was written by the health insurance industry to do exactly what you said - have the government hold you down while the insurance industry robs you. The bill was written by Liz Fowler, the ex-VP of Wellpoint insurance. To solve it, I'm not sure what to do. I guess a good start would be to take profit motive out of the equation. Not because the government could do it so much better, but because the insurance companies do it so much worse.

Government for the corporation, by the corporation is alive and well in America.