Libyans desecrate WWII allied war graves

[CaptainMattJ.]

Meanwhile they burn american flags, turn to us when they want to rebel, and then go back to the same thing they were always doing. not to mention these soldiers died to Wrench the axis from North Africa.

Its all such idiotic tribalism. It makes me sick to my stomach to see U.S soldiers urinating on dead soldiers and it sickens me to see these hypocrites desecrate war graves. Its all so ridiculous...

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

Meanwhile they burn american flags, turn to us when they want to rebel, and then go back to the same thing they were always doing. not to mention these soldiers died to Wrench the axis from North Africa.

Its all such idiotic tribalism. It makes me sick to my stomach to see U.S soldiers urinating on dead soldiers and it sickens me to see these hypocrites desecrate war graves. Its all so ridiculous...

i think this whole thing is just another indicator of the fundamental problems with the Islamic world and its relations with the non-islamic -that is, as some Britisher of the colonial era once said (and i forget who it was) the islamic world is like an enormous drum. You tap one small part of it and you hear the sound all over it.

They like to say that they are not monolithic, and emphasise the diversity within them, when it suits them to do so. No doubt it is true too in many aspects - and for sure Muslim Malaysia had little in common with Muslim Pakistan (although there are pressures for standardisation in recent years), it is also the case that there are many similarities, and especially this tribal instinct to unite in common outrage when their inflated sense of grievance is challenged.

The reaction to this display of unity of theirs is that we see them as united and associate their readiness to acts of violence that we see in kabul and libya with muslim communities in europe, russia and america. As you say it reinforces "idiotic tribalism"

Yes they asked for help when they wanted to rebel - why wouldn't they? Asking costs nothing. We helped them in Libya for our reasons, not for theirs. Although I acknowledge a little gratitiude wouldn't go amiss. Although you should also keep in perspective - how many people does it take to desecrate a cemetary? It's not like it was official policy of whatever it is that passes for government in post-gadaffi libya.

But also, i wouldn't confuse the status of allied war graves in libya. I think they do not have the same meaning in Libya as they do in France for example, whereby they are the cost allied forces paid to liberate the oppressed from tyranny.

I argue that in North Africa, they were not about this. They were one set of colonial rulers fighting a turf war with another set of colonial masters. Mostly the whole thing represents a reminder of the wretched condition to which the muslim world had fallen (and still is in) compared to their medieval glory days when the muslim world was roughly equal to or better than the other main civilisations of the day. In those days muslim lands were not merely the battlegrounds were great christian nations did battle with one another (and just a minor part of the battle at that).

I would be surprised if they felt that gratitude to the allied dead was a feeling that we expected of them.

[Jimbuna]

I read these comments on the link with both an air of interest and sadness.

I do not agree with what they have done but i can see why they would be angry,in the past few months there have been photos of US troops urinating on dead bodies and burning their religious books. They attacked our graves because we are guilty by association the same way that we will happily attack people saying they are helping the taliban etc. I wonder what the reaction of hardline Christians in the US would be if the found Muslims had been burning the Bible?

On behalf of all those dead soldiers,may I thank You Mr Cameron for helping to create this, at least the last regime in Llibya had the decency to respect our fallen of WW2!

Would someone care to remind us what the Saudis do to bibles confiscated on entry to their country? I could go on with many more examples of the uncivilised - and often fatal - nature of of the actions of islamic countries towards members of other religions.

Its all such idiotic tribalism. It makes me sick to my stomach to see U.S soldiers urinating on dead soldiers and it sickens me to see these hypocrites desecrate war graves. Its all so ridiculous...

Good point well made.

@joegrundman. one little point, you note the colonial nature as a difference between graves in France and in Africa, however it should also be considered that the silly tribalsim has led to many instances of French.....(can't call them Frenchmen in this instance for obvious reasons as scum would be a better suffix)...desecrating allied graves in France because they have a silly hatred of Britain or America.

[Skybird]

Pre-medieval tribalism, Islam, ultra-orthodox patriarchalism - that is like holding an open vial of Ebola, Plague and Anthrax in your hand and having forgotten where one has put the cap.

[STEED]

Its a bloody book for crying out loud!

Anyone would think the US Army shot a few Libyans for being in the way.

Books can be re-printed you know, hang on has anyone told them that? Makes you wonder.


These people...Are what's the point you know.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by STEED

Its a bloody book for crying out loud!

Apparently it means much more to them than that. I agree with you, though: "Just a damn book... get over it."

Its a bloody book for crying out loud!

Yes, and some people go mad over a flag, same sillyness isn't it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by krashkart

Apparently it means much more to them than that. I agree with you, though: "Just a damn book... get over it."

Obama excused to them - not to Allah, why is that? - on the same day when Amerian officers got shot dead in the Kabul HQ.

That is like sending a message of weakness, a message encouraging them.

Nobody should have excused over it at all. And if their heads pop open over it in anger - must not be our concern, but would have been of great benefit for the rest of mankind.


I read that some of the Qurans that got disposed, where used by prisoners to write conspratory message into them to communicate with other prisoners. I wonder why this profanity is of no concern for those "demostrators".

Islam is a political ideology first, a religious one only second. Politics is the intention, totalitarian control and supremacistic dominance - religion only serves as a deception. Self-victimization and claiming a status of eternal, always existing offence and being snapped over that, is a rethoric weapon to make the other feel bad, to make him excuse, to make him make another small step backwards while one makes one step ahead oneself.

On Afghanistan, since 2005 at the very latest I am saying that the war there already is FUBAR and is lost and cannot be won anymore. Since then I never had s single reason, not even the smallest one, to ever put that assessement into doubt.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by krashkart

"Just a damn book... get over it."

On the other side, you can say that they are just damned stones.....get over it; the dead don't care. The problem is dogma. Many Muslims hold their religion close to the chest. Many in the West hold war and the military in a quasi-religious manner as well. If we all let our beliefs go, then there would be nothing to fight over. Nobody is, however, ever going to do that. Certainly we won't; it would be called unreasonable. And so to expect the other to do it is equally unreasonable.

When Tevye overheard the cries for 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth', he quipped that soon the whole world would be blind and toothless. He is right.

[_dgn_]

U.S soldiers burned Koran. We know this episode.

But which are the consequences ?

-------------------------

For Muslims, these soldiers were NATURALLY Christians.

For Muslims, burning Koran is considered as a crime.

For Muslims, this was NATURALLY a Christian crime.

For Muslims, this Christian crime was NATURALLY premeditated.

For Muslims, this premeditated Christian crime was NATURALLY intended as a sacrilege.

For Muslims, punishing all Christians through the world for this sacrilege is NATURAL and OBLIGATORY.

Conclusion : for Muslims, punishing near Christians (even in tombs) is also NATURAL.

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Good remark ... and a small precision : some US soldiers burned religious books in Afghanistan. Yes, this was not really intelligent, but it was only about paper. And I think that there is a doubt about the will to make a sacrilege.

But when Muslims are starting to burn some Christian things, they burn also paper (the Bible) ... and the church ... and the Catholic school beside ... and the priest ... and the Christian people inside (I mean : women, men, children ...).

In this case, is there here a doubt about the Muslim will to make a sacrilege ?

Another remark : maybe Western European people made the same terrible things 10 centuries ago. Sorry ! But we are speaking about TODAY (2011/2012 facts), not about a far past.

On this particular point, ask the Copts in Egypt : http://www.voiceofthecopts.org/

Last remark : why Western European people fighted Islam 10 centuries ago ? Because Muslims prevented Christians to go in Jerusalem for their pilgrimage or reduced them to slavery. What could happen if now Christians prevented Muslims to go in Mecca for their pilgrimage ? No doubt : the Third World War ...

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by _dgn_

U.S soldiers burned Koran. We know this episode.

But which are the consequences ?

-------------------------

For Muslims, these soldiers were NATURALLY Christians.

For Muslims, burning Koran is considered as a crime.

For Muslims, this was NATURALLY a Christian crime.

For Muslims, this Christian crime was NATURALLY premeditated.

For Muslims, this premeditated Christian crime was NATURALLY intended as a sacrilege.

For Muslims, punishing all Christians through the world for this sacrilege is NATURAL and OBLIGATORY.

Conclusion : for Muslims, punishing near Christians (even in tombs) is also NATURAL.

Honestly things like this only make me feel that organized religion is bad for humanity not just a particular religion.Some Christians and Muslims have been fighting each other for many generations both sides did nasty things to the other during the crusades.Both sides have done nasty things to the other during the Lebanon Wars.Some Hindus and Muslims wish to wipe each other out on the Indian subcontinent.Some Jews and Muslims have be killing the other for many generations as well with both sides being guilty of nasty acts.
This fact leads me to feel that by and large organized religion is to blame.Almost every religion claims that it is right and all others are wrong and that makes it very easy first to use fear of damn nation to control people and it makes it very easy to make non believers as something less than human.

You need to read up a little more on the Crusades as well _dgn_ it is a great example of how organized religion is bad for all humanity.

[Platapus]

With both the Libyans and the Afghans, one has to recognize that there a contingent who is looking for an excuse, any excuse to demonstrate. If on one had burned Qur'ans they would have found some other excuse to be offended.

All we did was make it a bit more convenient.

[Stealhead]

That was the entire point I was making people though out history have used one religion or another as a reason to kill,maim,and act stupid.

You are just blinding your self to think that only people from a certain region or a certain religion are susceptible when it is know that
people all over the world use religion as their reasoning to do stupid things.

Not every Libyan or Afghan has the same views that is like saying all Americans agree with the Tea Partiers or the Occupy Wall Street protectors.

[Penguin]

I read a comment in another forum which goes like this:
"If we would have the same kind of love for fellow humans that we have for objects, we would be some steps futher."

Especially after reading about the suicide attack at the Jalalabad airfield today: yes, it makes perfect sense to blow up 9 fellow muslim civlilians because someone "disrespected" a book...

A professor of Islamic studies explained it like this:

Safi finds one analogy particularly helpful: The Quran is to Islam as Jesus is to Christianity. “In an Islamic universe ... the word becomes not a person, but a book,” he says. “For a Muslim to see the Quran burnt not as a way of burial, it would look and feel like someone burning Jesus, or a crucifix.”

(source:http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Globa...am-s-holy-book)

This is the mindset I can't get. Well, no matter who this Jesus guy was, son of god or an human being with some thoughts that were revolutionary for its time: he was crucified, but his ideas survived.
Jesus, same as the quran, stands for some ideas. No matter if you burn people or symbols who represent these ideas - the ideas are still there.
If you truly believe into those ideas, or a faith, an ideology or something similar, if you have true convictions it doesn't matter what happens, you still believe as ideas can't be burned or crucified.
Maybe this is the "sin" of what many followers are afraid of: to have doubts about their own faith; the crutch which allows them to paint the world in black and white. What if the quran was only a book, written in the desert by other humans? What if the Earth still keeps on rotating, no matter if you burn one, none or all qurans?

I know there are many people on here with a faith, this is not to put you down, whatever gets you through your life is fine.
I have a problem with people who think like drones, unable to reflect their own mind and actions, unable to see beyond their pre-fab world.

Originally Posted by Platapus

With both the Libyans and the Afghans, one has to recognize that there a contingent who is looking for an excuse, any excuse to demonstrate. If on one had burned Qur'ans they would have found some other excuse to be offended.

All we did was make it a bit more convenient.

Although I presume that you mean "if one would not had burned", I think you exactly nailed it.