Can't seem to get upgraded to Gato, TMO2.5

Originally Posted by Sidekikd34

Y'all did notice Ducimus kindly noted it's not guaranteed to work with any other mod, right? Have you tried TMO alone and see if that works?

So what might have changed with TMO 2.5? I've played TMO with RSRD for over a year and never saw this. Yes, I play TMO 2.5 alone and haven't seen this (yet!).

[donna52522]

I played TMO2.5 stand alone, with the 'Terrible T' campaign...they both messed up in early 1944....I was sent back in time to 1942...I had posted about it close to a month ago.

[Sidekikd34]

Originally Posted by jldjs

So what might have changed with TMO 2.5? I've played TMO with RSRD for over a year and never saw this. Yes, I play TMO 2.5 alone and haven't seen this (yet!).

I'm guessing if it is a TMO problem, it has to do with making Tambor class to upgrade level 5, which is higher than all other classes. I've looked around in the files, and I don't know why that would make a problem if you're already in a Tambor, although upgrading to one would lock you in forever.

I make my own mod over TMO using Duci's files as a base, so I haven't actually got to using TMO 2.5 much yet...

You may want to try putting Tambor back to UpgradeClass=3 in \Data\Submarine\NSS_Tambor\NSS_Tambor.upc, putting it on the same level with Gar and Gato, and see if that works better for you. If I run across the same issue, I'd try that first.

Although, that ruins the whole Terrible T campaign. The strange thing I see in the campaign is Tambors are excluded from all flotillas, but in the Tambor campaign, PH goes away and comes back, which is unlike the others.

[Ducimus]

*sigh*

I know what the problem is. SH4 hates me.

Yes, as noted, the Tambor is set at upgradeclass 5. This was intentional, because the way i had set up the upgrade classes, the order of progression should be something like:
S class -> Porpoise -> Salmon/Sargo -> Gar -> Gato -> Balao/Tench

With the tambor completely out of the loop into the upper end. In theory, you couldne't get offered a tambor unless you were in a tench. I intentionally removed the Tambor classes from ALL other flotillas to be sure they couldn't be offered anywhere else by mistake (apparently the game will give you a boat even if it isn't assigned to your flotilla), and also there was a presumption on my part that the game will offer upgrades in numerical order. Logical no? 1 before 2, 2 before 3, 3 before 4.

Since the game defies logic, the only way to really fix this is to revert the associated files back to the previous version of TMO, and scrap the terrible T campaign.

I also want to mention that i have NEVER EVER liked what the devs did with how submarines or conning tower refits are offered. It really sucks, because whatever routine they have in the code, defies all logic or sanity, so it is extremely hard to mod and account for. I have often thought of trying to change it back to how it worked in SH3, but i don't think its possible, its code level.

And BTW, i did test this all out before i published TMO 2.5. I set up a test mission outside of pearl with the main objective to reach the desginated area, rewarding enough renown to be a considered a successful patrol. I then took this setup and ran several boats out of pearl and it worked as i wanted, but apparently it was a fluke. A classic case of "it worked on my computer".


edit:

The strange thing I see in the campaign is Tambors are excluded from all flotillas, but in the Tambor campaign, PH goes away and comes back, which is unlike the others.

That was intentional. I had set it to where if you played the whole thing, your base would be changed in the south west pacific. To change the pace, new missions etc, instead of running just the PH missions all the time. Eventually changing you back to PH. As i recall, i set this to very loosely follow the Tautog's patrols in terms of base assignments.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Yes, as noted, the Tambor is set at upgradeclass 5. This was intentional, because the way i had set up the upgrade classes, the order of progression should be something like:
S class -> Porpoise -> Salmon/Sargo -> Gar -> Gato -> Balao/Tench

With the tambor completely out of the loop into the upper end. In theory, you couldne't get offered a tambor unless you were in a tench. I intentionally removed the Tambor classes from ALL other flotillas to be sure they couldn't be offered anywhere else by mistake (apparently the game will give you a boat even if it isn't assigned to your flotilla), and also there was a presumption on my part that the game will offer upgrades in numerical order. Logical no? 1 before 2, 2 before 3, 3 before 4.

Since the game defies logic, the only way to really fix this is to revert the associated files back to the previous version of TMO, and scrap the terrible T campaign.

While your idea of the new boats being offered in order, 1....2.....3....4 makes sense. They might just as well be offered in order of increasing value, i.e. 1.....1+x.....1+x+y..... That is, every new command would be an improvement over the previous one. Maybe a marginal improvement, maybe a large improvement. It is not only a matter of rewarding a CO for a good patrol, but perhaps more importantly, of mating the best CO's with the best available boats. Also, there would likely be quite a bit of chance involved (I guess), as to what happens to become available at that particular time.

[Sidekikd34]

That's pretty much what I was thinking, based on what you said in your manual about refits/upgrades/promotions all being thrown together in the game engine. It just doesn't like taking Tambor out of the system.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TorpX

While your idea of the new boats being offered in order, 1....2.....3....4 makes sense. They might just as well be offered in order of increasing value, i.e. 1.....1+x.....1+x+y..... That is, every new command would be an improvement over the previous one. Maybe a marginal improvement, maybe a large improvement. It is not only a matter of rewarding a CO for a good patrol, but perhaps more importantly, of mating the best CO's with the best available boats. Also, there would likely be quite a bit of chance involved (I guess), as to what happens to become available at that particular time.

By this time i think it's obvious that if there's an upgrade available, the game tosses the upper end at you regardless of the value of upgrade class, or even if its in the same flotilla or not. The game just doesn't care. From what i gather from this thread, regardless of everything else, It always shoots for the bigger number. That said, i still don't understand why it worked on my computer. When i get around to fixing this, i'm going to stop trying to be elegant, and pick a simple straightforward solution.

[gAiNiAc]

Duci,

You should fire those SHIV developers for making such a crappy mod that screws up TMO!!!!

lmao!

[Ducimus]

I'm just sorry this has manifested itself into a problem. I've poured a lot of effort into this game and mod. The kick in the crotch is I haven't honestly tried to play a real career game in a couple of years. Test games a plenty, but to sit down and enjoy it? It's just not in my capacity. I know too much of the inner workings to suspend disbeleif, all i see is variable and objects; and because of that, i have zero desire to play.


Anyway in the interm, to fix this problem, you'll have to look at the submarine UPC files of the last version of TMO, in specific the upgradeclass variable. It should be near the top section of the file. Edit this to the last version of TMO, and then take the careerstart.upc file, and the flotilla.upc file as well. They're located i belelive, data/upcdata/upccampaign or something like that. Should be a straight drag and drop. This will pretty much be what the patch will look like, if you want to go ahead and fix the problem yourself. I will patch it, though i cannot say when. I have very little desire to look at the game, other then to save face from my collossoal screw up, and i don't have any of the previous files backed up on my new computer. So if i can't grab the old files, ill have to fix things the hard way.

The above is going by memory mind you, i'm slightly buzzed right now from captain morgan rum. Anyway, the only way to salvage the concept behind the terrible T campaign, is basically to disable and remove every freaking sub from play EXCEPT the one boat you want to play the entire war. Kinda sucks, but there it is.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TorpX

. It is not only a matter of rewarding a CO for a good patrol, but perhaps more importantly, of mating the best CO's with the best available boats.

I've been thinking about what you said here the last couple days.

I need two bits of information from those experiencing this problem.

1.) How much renown are you averaging per patrol? What was the most renown you earned in any single patrol?

2.) After being offered a Tambor, are you in the same flotilla, or are you being transported into the Terrible T flotilla? ( You can check but looking at the transfer menu (phone in office), it should list the description of your current flotilla at the top of that screen. )


I'm developing a two part theory that
A.) renown earned influences upgrade class. In my testing, I only tested what was considered a good patrol. I didn't test excellent patrol ratings. Maybe why it worked on my computer?

b.) I have a sneaky suspicion your in the same flotilla you were to begin with. As i recall, the Missions for the tambor still reside in every flotilla the boat was assigned to. All i did, as a short cut (because i didn't feel like rewriting the ENTIRE FILE), was date the tambor availablity dates to be post war. It could be the game is not paying attention to when the boat is available in terms of date, and fixates only if missions are available for it.

[donna52522]

I have always been in Fremantle when I moved up from a Gar to a Tambor, but always career start at Cavite. I'm playing 2.2 now and I am in Surabaya so I'm not sure what the Fremantle flotilla is called. When playing the 'Terrible T' it's usually transferring in or out of Fremantle in late 43/early 44 where myself and at least one other person I know of was time warped back to July 42.

As for renown, mine always fluctuates too much to have an average, so I can not help you there.

On a side note, I was excited when 2.5 came out with the 'T' campaign, sorry it didn't work out as you had planned. The rest of the changes are great, the environments and the night surface attacks had really made the game more enjoyable. It's a shame you put so much work into a game that you no longer enjoy playing, but I think I can speak not just for myself but for a lot of people when I say your work is greatly appreciated. TMO is an excellent mod.

I do hope some kind of patch type fix will become available as some people, especially myself, are not very good at file changing/swapping.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I've been thinking about what you said here the last couple days.

I need two bits of information from those experiencing this problem.

1.) How much renown are you averaging per patrol? What was the most renown you earned in any single patrol?

2.) After being offered a Tambor, are you in the same flotilla, or are you being transported into the Terrible T flotilla? ( You can check but looking at the transfer menu (phone in office), it should list the description of your current flotilla at the top of that screen. )


I'm developing a two part theory that
A.) renown earned influences upgrade class. In my testing, I only tested what was considered a good patrol. I didn't test excellent patrol ratings. Maybe why it worked on my computer?

b.) I have a sneaky suspicion your in the same flotilla you were to begin with. As i recall, the Missions for the tambor still reside in every flotilla the boat was assigned to. All i did, as a short cut (because i didn't feel like rewriting the ENTIRE FILE), was date the tambor availablity dates to be post war. It could be the game is not paying attention to when the boat is available in terms of date, and fixates only if missions are available for it.

I wish I could answer your question as accurately as you would probably deem necessary, but a lot of variables came into play in my experience which might have influenced the actual number, like a "Command Presence" specialist who influenced my renown.

Still, I can say that my renown (I thought) was a little on the high side. There were a lot of Jap subs that kept appearing during my patrols too. I think I came across six or seven over three patrols (3 on one patrol alone). They were split between contacts in the South Chian Sea and the Flores Sea. I also came across large numbers of tankers (Large and Medium) in the Makassar Strait. So many in fact, that I never made it to my patrol objectives (the shortest routes being through the Makassar) without expending all of my ordinance and RTBing. I was averaging about 55 to 60k tonnage per patrol, about half of which were large tankers.
There was almost no air patrols (even near air bases), and even running RSRDC in tandem with TMO, it was sparse enough for me to take notice.

I've since started a new career using the workaround that you previously mentioned (so far no problems), so I cannot check for sure what flotilla I was assigned to. I will say that I was stuck at Fremantle right after Cavite and, even after a Jan. 1, 44 transfer to Midway, I was still being assigned to patrol areas that I had been patrolling when I was based at Perth-Fremantle. There was one point where I was advised to shift my base of operations to Milne Bay (via radio message) but, my Home Port (tilted anchor) never changed over from Fremantle.

I'm hoping that this will help some in your endeavor to narrow things down.

[I'm goin' down]

I just read this thread. There is only one solution. Ducimus, you are fired. I mean demoted. New Title/Rank: Secretary of the Navy.

Note: Secretary of the Navy was James Forestall's position during WW2, as that was his title when he signed an order awarding my father a medal for combat on Saipan.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I just read this thread. There is only one solution. Ducimus, you are fired.