HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue and HMS Cressy to be scrapped.

[Schroeder]

I wasn't even aware that war graves can be sold away.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

I wasn't even aware that war graves can be sold away.

Everything has a price...

[Jimbuna]

Absolutely disgraceful imo...I wonder if Churchill was aware of what was being agreed to in 1954?

[HunterICX]

How tasteless and dishonorable....

HunterICX

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Absolutely disgraceful imo...I wonder if Churchill was aware of what was being agreed to in 1954?

Of course he did, as First Lord he bore much of the responsibility for the ships being there in the first place since he had ordered resumption of the armoured cruiser patrols off the Dutch coast against the advice of the Admiralty Operations Division.

No doubt he wanted the lopsided German victory off the Broad Fourteens forgotten and removed from his copybook.

There are more than a few crocodile tears being shed here and Britain's reasonably new-found reverence for the sanctity of marine war graves is rather odd given that the British Museum is chock full of loot pulled from the assorted graves of lesser cultures. Of course British commercial interests were involved in the scrapping of the Jutland wrecks SMS Lutzow and Pommern, both of which, by the standards claimed here, should have been preserved. Can't say who snagged HMS Queen Mary's propellers though.

We clean up land battlefields, why not those at sea. Provided of course that proper respect be accorded to all human remains that might be recovered in the process. By the standards being claimed here every battlefield should remain sacrosanct forever including all of the Western Front since it is still one contiguous graveyard. Common sense has to prevail.

One of the things that make these wrecks valuable is the quantities of non-radioactive ferrous metals of which there is only a small and shrinking global quantity. Every piece of steel produced after the Trinity nuclear test contains minute quantities of radioactive isotopes but the scrap from ships built and sunk before July 1945 is radiation free and can be used for all sorts of specialty applications. These end-uses are frequently medically related and so there is a very real prospect that the scrap from Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue might actually help save lives.

The Brit's sold the wrecks and the Dutch have every claim to profit from them. I will now don my best NOMEX suit and await the rage from the UK members here.

[Oberon]

In all seriousness, you do make a good point, and it wouldn't be the first ship that people have died on which has been cut up. Heck, they refloated, sold and reused the Herald of Free Enterprise on which 193 people died, AFAIK she's still in service somewhere in Taiwan.
Thing is though, where do you draw the line? Should the Titanic be cut up?
Furthermore there are the environmental concerns, a lot of these wrecks are now home to a plethora of sea life, removing the hull will remove their home.
The English channel is an absolute carpet of ship wrecks, you cannot move down there without running into either a ship or an aircraft wreck.

[nikimcbee]

How deep of water are they in?

I'll just add this:
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?57

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

How deep of water are they in?

Today the three cruisers lie in about 80 feet of water, some 22 miles out from Scheveningen.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

How deep of water are they in?

I'll just add this:
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?57

Lettens Jan06/08/2007

Lies in approx 35m depth. The top of the wreck extends to 10m above the seabed and lies turtle, while the rest of the wreck lies to port side. Big holes on the side of the ship. Lots of explosives and shells to find. Visibility 6 to 25m.
insert wreck site info

It would be interesting to see some dive photos.

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

It would be interesting to see some dive photos.

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Of course he did, as First Lord he bore much of the responsibility for the ships being there in the first place since he had ordered resumption of the armoured cruiser patrols off the Dutch coast against the advice of the Admiralty Operations Division.

No doubt he wanted the lopsided German victory off the Broad Fourteens forgotten and removed from his copybook.

There are more than a few crocodile tears being shed here and Britain's reasonably new-found reverence for the sanctity of marine war graves is rather odd given that the British Museum is chock full of loot pulled from the assorted graves of lesser cultures. Of course British commercial interests were involved in the scrapping of the Jutland wrecks SMS Lutzow and Pommern, both of which, by the standards claimed here, should have been preserved. Can't say who snagged HMS Queen Mary's propellers though.

We clean up land battlefields, why not those at sea. Provided of course that proper respect be accorded to all human remains that might be recovered in the process. By the standards being claimed here every battlefield should remain sacrosanct forever including all of the Western Front since it is still one contiguous graveyard. Common sense has to prevail.

One of the things that make these wrecks valuable is the quantities of non-radioactive ferrous metals of which there is only a small and shrinking global quantity. Every piece of steel produced after the Trinity nuclear test contains minute quantities of radioactive isotopes but the scrap from ships built and sunk before July 1945 is radiation free and can be used for all sorts of specialty applications. These end-uses are frequently medically related and so there is a very real prospect that the scrap from Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue might actually help save lives.

The Brit's sold the wrecks and the Dutch have every claim to profit from them. I will now don my best NOMEX suit and await the rage from the UK members here.

Well then it should also be no Problem to scrap the Arizona if i got your logic conclusions right?

Land Battlefields can be cleaned up and the fallen soldiers can be buried in Military Cemetaries, this is impossible to Victims of Sea Battles, their ship is their Coffin so it should be treated as an official war grave / military cemetary as it always was.

Originally Posted by Kongo Otto

Well then it should also be no Problem to scrap the Arizona if i got your logic conclusions right?

Land Battlefields can be cleaned up and the fallen soldiers can be buried in Military Cemetaries, this is impossible to Victims of Sea Battles, their ship is their Coffin so it should be treated as an official war grave / military cemetary as it always was.

Arizona is a dedicated War Grave, Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue were sold as scrap by their own government. If you cannot see any difference between the two...

Besides, Arizona is an environmental disaster waiting to happen as she continues to deteriorate exposing her fuel bunkers. At some point something will need to be done. Perhaps, in your view, they should have left Oklahoma where she was?

The needs of the living should always take priority over the dead who have no more needs. Remembrance is about what we do not where we do it.

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

The needs of the living should always take priority over the dead who have no more needs. Remembrance is about what we do not where we do it.

*zynism on*
Exactly! Therefore we should tear down all US Cemeteries here in Europe and build Houses on the land for they who have more needs.
You can do your rememberance over there at your place, so there is no need for US Military Cemeteries in Europe at all.
*zynism off*

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Arizona is a dedicated War Grave, Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue were sold as scrap by their own government. If you cannot see any difference between the two...

So the difference between a war grave that must be respected and a chunk of metal ready to be salvaged is a buying contract....
No, sorry I really can't see the difference.

On the other hand I can understand where you are coming from, but it still seems wrong to me. Just gut feeling.

[clive bradbury]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

There are more than a few crocodile tears being shed here and Britain's reasonably new-found reverence for the sanctity of marine war graves is rather odd given that the British Museum is chock full of loot pulled from the assorted graves of lesser cultures. Of course British commercial interests were involved in the scrapping of the Jutland wrecks SMS Lutzow and Pommern, both of which, by the standards claimed here, should have been preserved. Can't say who snagged HMS Queen Mary's propellers though.

Just a few points:

Which sources do you rely upon to support the accusation that the tears are 'crocodile' rather than related to genuine concern over a war grave? Or is it simply speculation on your part not backed by evidence?

The British Museum is certainly full of loot from graves. There is a name for that - archeology. If you are prepared to accuse British archeologists of being grave robbers then please extend that accusation to the providers of similar artifacts in US museums.

Could you please reference your source for the British commercial interests re the Pommern and Lutzow, both of which, as far as can be ascertained, were heavily salvaged by a GERMAN company in the 1950s and 60s?