Santorum brought home stillborn child...bat**** crazy alert.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

How is it any different than bringing them to a funeral home or even a cemetary?

A funeral home or a cemetery is a place which a child will only visit on these kinds of occasion. You have time to prepare a child and to explain what death means. If the child does not feel comfortable getting close to the deceased, he can stay away.

The home is usually the place where a child feels the safest. Bringing a body into the home may have an unsettling effect on the child (obviously it depends on the child) and he may associate that memory with his home.

When I was 7, my cousin who was also 7 died. I can still vividly see the image of him in his coffin. Even though I played with him for years before, that is the only memory I have left of him. Death can have a powerful impact when you are young.

of course, that is only my opinion. This is probably the first time I have agreed with Bubblehead1980 on anything.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

A funeral home or a cemetery is a place which a child will only visit on these kinds of occasion. You have time to prepare a child and to explain what death means. If the child does not feel comfortable getting close to the deceased, he can stay away.

The home is usually the place where a child feels the safest. Bringing a body into the home may have an unsettling effect on the child (obviously it depends on the child) and he may associate that memory with his home.

When I was 7, my cousin who was also 7 died. I can still vividly see the image of him in his coffin. Even though I played with him for years before, that is the only memory I have left of him. Death can have a powerful impact when you are young.

of course, that is only my opinion. This is probably the first time I have agreed with Bubblehead1980 on anything.

haha well this is just such a no brainer, can't believe how many people on here disagree with me on this one.Ah well.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

This is probably the first time I have agreed with Bubblehead1980 on anything.

I agree with him on many things. The problem I have is the single-minded self-righteous manner in which he insists on expressing himself. He needs to learn that his opinion is not fact.

relax man, its an internet discussion.

If its a discussion then deal with the points raised as your addition to the discussion(while interesting) didn't stand up very well did it.

[Platapus]

I remember in EMT school, we were taught how to baptize dead babies. How stupid and worthless is that?

.....except it is helps the surviving family with their grief and once the kid is dead, it is the family that needs taking care of.

Personally, I would never take a dead kid home. But I must have missed the E-mail where Santorum asked for my opinion on this.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

If its a discussion then deal with the points raised as your addition to the discussion(while interesting) didn't stand up very well did it.

On the contrary, I think they stand up very well.

As a parent, you always hope your children will turn out to be responsible, well adjusted adults. You try to make the right choices and keep your fingers crossed.

In the case of Santorum, you have to wonder if he made that decision because he thought it was the best thing for his children or if he was just following his political/religious ideology:

He and Karen brought Gabriel's body home so their children could "absorb and understand that they had a brother," Santorum says. "We wanted them to see that he was real," not an abstraction, he says. Not a "fetus," either, as Rick and Karen were appalled to see him described -- "a 20-week-old fetus" -- on a hospital form. They changed the form to read "20-week-old baby."

Karen Santorum, a former nurse, wrote letters to her son during and after her pregnancy. She compiled them into a book, "Letters to Gabriel," a collection of prayers, Bible passages and a chronicle of the prenatal complications that led to Gabriel's premature delivery. At one point, her doctor raised the prospect of an abortion, an "option" Karen ridicules. "Letters to Gabriel" also derides "pro-abortion activists" and decries the "infanticide" of "partial-birth abortion," the legality of which Rick Santorum was then debating in the Senate. The book reads, in places, like a call to action.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

In the case of Santorum, you have to wonder if he made that decision because he thought it was the best thing for his children or if he was just following his political/religious ideology:

I guess it never occured to you that living his religious views - following the theology he says he believes is - could be something that he views as best for himself and his family? I mean - whats the use of believing something if you ignore it in your daily life?

Did it occur to you that he wanted to impress upon his children the values he has - that a premature child is a life - and in this case - a life lost, instead of a blob of cells called a fetus that its ok to chuck out in a trash can?

As a parent - its our responsibility to use life to teach our children. We teach them as best we can. Sometimes its uncomfortable. Sometimes it downright hurts. But that is what love does - it compels us to give them what we believe are the best tools and moral/ethical foundations to succeed. The reality is that you disagree with his morals and ethics, so you have a problem with him passing those on to his children - especially since you can complain about his way of doing it.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I guess it never occured to you that living his religious views - following the theology he says he believes is - could be something that he views as best for himself and his family? I mean - whats the use of believing something if you ignore it in your daily life?

so if he believed in polygamy and marrying 13 year old wives, then that would be ok by you?

Did it occur to you that he wanted to impress upon his children the values he has - that a premature child is a life - and in this case - a life lost, instead of a blob of cells called a fetus that its ok to chuck out in a trash can?

now who ever said anything about that.

As a parent - its our responsibility to use life to teach our children. We teach them as best we can. Sometimes its uncomfortable. Sometimes it downright hurts. But that is what love does - it compels us to give them what we believe are the best tools and moral/ethical foundations to succeed. The reality is that you disagree with his morals and ethics, so you have a problem with him passing those on to his children - especially since you can complain about his way of doing it.

yes, I have a problem with zealots trying to brainwash their children with their narrow view of the world. What will mr. Santorum do if his daughter becomes pregnant at 17 because mommy and daddy don't believe in birth control and she decides she really does not want to be a teenage mother?

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

so if he believed in polygamy and marrying 13 year old wives, then that would be ok by you?

There is a rather large difference in choosing a non-standard way of grieving the loss of your child and your example of federal and state illegal actions.

Strawman much? The two are nowhere near comparable since one is a perfectly legal act, while the other has been deemed by society to not only be strange and weird, but also harmful to the victims and illegal.

Do try to use a bit of commone sense once in a while.

Takeda, I am not lumping them together in any way regarding their contributions to society or the like. I am however lumping them together as a comparison of the fact that some people choose to do non-standard things or believe non-standard ways. If we need to make it more "modern" and less impactful, I can do that with the following:

Rick Santorum choose to grieve his own way, and for that he is ridiculed and called crazy. For many decades, society has ridiculed people who made choices to act in ways against the mainstream. One such group is homosexuals. It was not right to make fun of their choices to live their life the way they saw fit - especially if it was in the privacy of their own home. So why is it ok to do so to this man regading his personal choice to grieve in his own home?

Like that example better?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Did it occur to you that he wanted to impress upon his children the values he has - that a premature child is a life - and in this case - a life lost, instead of a blob of cells called a fetus that its ok to chuck out in a trash can?

But that's a false choice. You're saying the only alternative to bringing a corpse home and introducing it to his children as their brother is to dispose of it like medical waste. That's not true at all.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

But that's a false choice. You're saying the only alternative to bringing a corpse home and introducing it to his children as their brother is to dispose of it like medical waste. That's not true at all.

No, I am saying that because he did something that is not in the realm of standard behavior today (but that was historically traditional in this as well as many other cultures previously) - people are saying he is bat**** crazy.

Columbus was bat******** crazy. Copernicus was too. The man made a choice to honor his grief and the life that was lost in a way that he felt was most appropriate for he and his family. He felt a life was lost - and he grieved and said a goodbye in his own way. How is that somehow wrong, crazy and worthy of ridicule?

On the contrary, I think they stand up very well.

Not in the slightest.
They may stand up for you, but that is the whole point you are completely unable to see.
Grief and dealing with death are not really the same for any two people, everyone deals with it in their own way and they are all right, just because their way is different from yours or you don't like it doesn't mean they are wrong in any way whatsoever.

As for your bolded bits that is definately wrong on your part, just as stillborn was the incorrect word to use so is fetus.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Not in the slightest.
They may stand up for you, but that is the whole point you are completely unable to see.
Grief and dealing with death are not really the same for any two people, everyone deals with it in their own way and they are all right, just because their way is different from yours or you don't like it doesn't mean they are wrong in any way whatsoever.

As for your bolded bits that is definately wrong on your part, just as stillborn was the incorrect word to use so is fetus.

again you make the mistake of confusing your opinion for fact or worse, of even thinking I care what your opinion is.

again you make the mistake of confusing your opinion for fact or worse, of even thinking I care what your opinion is

Do you have language problems or just a thought blockage? Perhaps it is both
It seems you are unable to defend your view, reason or contribute and instead slide further into the realm of delusional ignorance where Bubbles resides.

Its not surprising really as the whole point is that there are only opinions in this matter and you and bubbles are both portraying yours as fact.
Your one redeeming feature was that you once used the word "may" but then blew it be going on as if that "may" was "will".
Such a closed mind, you are just the same as the religious zealots you wish to condemn.

Though of course on the latter part of the post you quoted it is very safe to say you are completely 100% wrong as both are very easily and clearly established as facts.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

again you make the mistake of confusing your opinion for fact or worse, of even thinking I care what your opinion is.

Now there's a healthy foundation for discussion. Surprisingly common too.