5 or 10 meter. Makes a difference?

vincentz · 11-07-11, 04:42 PM

makes sense. I just didn't know if it was programmed to spot the difference.
I love the game, but it has soooo many flaws and bugs that it wouldn't surprise me if either the game counted it as "fully visible" at 10 meters OR "fully submerged". I hope its in the middle.

Armistead · 11-07-11, 07:21 PM

People argue what decks awash is in game, to me it's only diving deep enough, but engines are still running. If you dive deep enough, your electrics will engage and watch crew vanish, yes, you can still roam the bridge, but in all aspects the game views you as dived and you are now a target for sonar. To be it's a cheat to do decks awash when your sub is technically dived.

Rockin Robbins · 11-09-11, 11:50 AM

In reality, there were two decks awash procedures. One was to leave the diesels running, the other was to be a bit deeper and use electric motors.

We can do both in the game. Like you I like to be decks awash with diesels running. My most urgent need is have fully charged batteries at all times. This reduces fuel use and gives me a fully combat ready submarine that can remain submerged for the longest possible time if it is necessary for survival.

There have been limited numbers of times where I came to the surface for thirty seconds or so to get a radar fix. Then I will typically come to 37 feet or so, get the fix and submerge again. In this case the important thing is to keep visual signature as small as possible. Since I came from an environment where I could be detected on sonar, it doesn't matter that I still can be as I pop up for a peek.

Daniel Prates · 11-11-11, 01:16 PM

RR, you're talking RL procedures, or game procedures only? Or RL skippers would indeed often use decks awash tactics?

Rockin Robbins · 11-11-11, 02:54 PM

Both. They ran decks awash almost all the times during night surface attacks. Even during the daytime, if they anticipated needing to dive quickly they would limit the amount of freeboard so they had less of a ballast tank to fill to get to negative buoyancy.

My specific comments were about game conduct though.

TorpX · 11-12-11, 01:39 AM

I've never used the "decks awash" proceedure in the game, so I don't know how that works, but it strikes me as a gamey tactic. I can't really see how lowering your depth a few feet changes your profile much or makes you harder to spot at night. In this sort of situation, you would be spotted by the phospheressence of the water or the silhouette of your tower against the night sky. Neither of these would be changed much by running decks awash. What would change would be that you would have tons of extra weight (and greater draft) slowing you down. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't recall ever reading of this tactic being used. I can see using electric motors on the surface, in order to be quiet, but this is not quite the same thing.

I did read of the Pompano (and two other subs) doing the opposite on Dec. 7th '41. By this I mean they were running with all ballast empty (even the safety tank), in order to obtain the best speed and keep their schedule. After the news of the air raid on Pearl Harbor was transmitted, this was realised to be a mistake and they immediately compensated the boat and rigged for dive.

Sailor Steve · 11-12-11, 10:25 AM

No one ever travelled in a decks awash condition. As you point out, it causes complications with drag and fuel usage. What is being said is that it was used a lot for night surface attacks. You want to be moving slowly to keep wake and phosphorescence down, and the lower profile helps when approaching enemy shipping, and you're already at or near neutral bouyancy which helps you get down faster if you are spotted.

The game doesn't reflect the procedure properly. I'm pretty sure that most decks-awash attacks were conducted on battery power, to help keep noise down. In the game that automatically makes you 'submerged', so the watch crew disappears. The lowered 'surface' depth is the only compromise available.

Daniel Prates · 11-12-11, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

My specific comments were about game conduct though.

Yeah that's what I was asking. It seems to me that there is no compairson between game and actual conditions, and as Steve pointed out, what we have is the "lowered surface depth" in-between solution.

jcope · 11-20-11, 04:32 PM

I agree. But it would still be better information than I have now. I think having a rough idea of where I should start worrying about being visible couldn't hurt. Conditions and AI variability can be accounted for as well.

Real life captains must have been able to observe other subs at sea, and must have had feel for how easy to spot they were.

scubamatt · 11-21-11, 12:25 PM

Well you can always pick an enemy harbor and sneak up to it during the day. Pick one without a roving guard ship, like the one on the north east coast of Formosa. You want something that has patrol boats sitting around doing nothing. Unless they detect you, they don't start shooting or move from their spots, so they are a great way to test your visibility.

Move up to it (submerged) until you are about 10nm away. Save your game at this point, so you have the same starting conditions each time.

Surface, then motor straight forward at about 2-3 knots, plain as day. When they finally spot you, make a note of how close you got.

Reload and do it again, only this time set your depth at the decks awash setting. You should be able to get closer before they see you.

Reload and do it again at periscope depth, with your attack scope up and visible.

Then you can compress time and try it again at night if you like. You should see a difference between each method.

(Edit: You can also use an enemy fishing boat/sampan to check this. The next time you encounter one, save your game then try going straight at him surfaced/decks awash/periscope depth. Note the point at which he freaks out and starts making frantic turns to avoid you, then reload and check a different method.)

11-09-11, 11:50 AM	#3
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	In reality, there were two decks awash procedures. One was to leave the diesels running, the other was to be a bit deeper and use electric motors. We can do both in the game. Like you I like to be decks awash with diesels running. My most urgent need is have fully charged batteries at all times. This reduces fuel use and gives me a fully combat ready submarine that can remain submerged for the longest possible time if it is necessary for survival. There have been limited numbers of times where I came to the surface for thirty seconds or so to get a radar fix. Then I will typically come to 37 feet or so, get the fix and submerge again. In this case the important thing is to keep visual signature as small as possible. Since I came from an environment where I could be detected on sonar, it doesn't matter that I still can be as I pop up for a peek. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

11-11-11, 02:54 PM	#5
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	Both. They ran decks awash almost all the times during night surface attacks. Even during the daytime, if they anticipated needing to dive quickly they would limit the amount of freeboard so they had less of a ballast tank to fill to get to negative buoyancy. My specific comments were about game conduct though. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

11-12-11, 01:39 AM	#6
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	I've never used the "decks awash" proceedure in the game, so I don't know how that works, but it strikes me as a gamey tactic. I can't really see how lowering your depth a few feet changes your profile much or makes you harder to spot at night. In this sort of situation, you would be spotted by the phospheressence of the water or the silhouette of your tower against the night sky. Neither of these would be changed much by running decks awash. What would change would be that you would have tons of extra weight (and greater draft) slowing you down. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't recall ever reading of this tactic being used. I can see using electric motors on the surface, in order to be quiet, but this is not quite the same thing. I did read of the Pompano (and two other subs) doing the opposite on Dec. 7th '41. By this I mean they were running with all ballast empty (even the safety tank), in order to obtain the best speed and keep their schedule. After the news of the air raid on Pearl Harbor was transmitted, this was realised to be a mistake and they immediately compensated the boat and rigged for dive.

11-12-11, 10:25 AM	#7
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	No one ever travelled in a decks awash condition. As you point out, it causes complications with drag and fuel usage. What is being said is that it was used a lot for night surface attacks. You want to be moving slowly to keep wake and phosphorescence down, and the lower profile helps when approaching enemy shipping, and you're already at or near neutral bouyancy which helps you get down faster if you are spotted. The game doesn't reflect the procedure properly. I'm pretty sure that most decks-awash attacks were conducted on battery power, to help keep noise down. In the game that automatically makes you 'submerged', so the watch crew disappears. The lowered 'surface' depth is the only compromise available. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

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11-07-11, 04:42 PM	#1
vincentz Sailor man Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: CPH - DK Posts: 43 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	makes sense. I just didn't know if it was programmed to spot the difference. I love the game, but it has soooo many flaws and bugs that it wouldn't surprise me if either the game counted it as "fully visible" at 10 meters OR "fully submerged". I hope its in the middle.

11-07-11, 07:21 PM	#2
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	People argue what decks awash is in game, to me it's only diving deep enough, but engines are still running. If you dive deep enough, your electrics will engage and watch crew vanish, yes, you can still roam the bridge, but in all aspects the game views you as dived and you are now a target for sonar. To be it's a cheat to do decks awash when your sub is technically dived.

11-11-11, 01:16 PM	#4
Daniel Prates Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Curitiba, Brazil Posts: 938 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	RR, you're talking RL procedures, or game procedures only? Or RL skippers would indeed often use decks awash tactics?

11-20-11, 04:32 PM	#9
jcope Bosun Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 66 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	I agree. But it would still be better information than I have now. I think having a rough idea of where I should start worrying about being visible couldn't hurt. Conditions and AI variability can be accounted for as well. Real life captains must have been able to observe other subs at sea, and must have had feel for how easy to spot they were.

11-21-11, 12:25 PM	#10
scubamatt Mate Join Date: May 2008 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 51 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 0	Well you can always pick an enemy harbor and sneak up to it during the day. Pick one without a roving guard ship, like the one on the north east coast of Formosa. You want something that has patrol boats sitting around doing nothing. Unless they detect you, they don't start shooting or move from their spots, so they are a great way to test your visibility. Move up to it (submerged) until you are about 10nm away. Save your game at this point, so you have the same starting conditions each time. Surface, then motor straight forward at about 2-3 knots, plain as day. When they finally spot you, make a note of how close you got. Reload and do it again, only this time set your depth at the decks awash setting. You should be able to get closer before they see you. Reload and do it again at periscope depth, with your attack scope up and visible. Then you can compress time and try it again at night if you like. You should see a difference between each method. (Edit: You can also use an enemy fishing boat/sampan to check this. The next time you encounter one, save your game then try going straight at him surfaced/decks awash/periscope depth. Note the point at which he freaks out and starts making frantic turns to avoid you, then reload and check a different method.)