Islamist cleric Anwar Awlaki killed in Yemen

tater · 09-30-11, 10:26 AM

Mookie is right here. Note that anyone who complained about gitmo, rendition, enhanced interrogation, etc under Bush should be enraged beyond bounds as this is far worse than all such non-lethal actions combined.

My passport says that joining a foreign military can terminate my citizenship (it says "foreign state"). I think that clearly since 9-11 we should have made that SOP. John Walker Lindh (sp?) should have had his citizenship terminated, for example so he could be dealt with without legal ramifications. There was no need to inform this scumbag Obama just killed, but to dot all the "i"s they should have officially removed his citizenship with the stroke of a pen before ordering him killed. Note that the requirement of it being a "foreign state" needs to be changed in the modern world of deadly, transnational, non-state actors.

AVGWarhawk · 09-30-11, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Mookie is right here. Note that anyone who complained about gitmo, rendition, enhanced interrogation, etc under Bush should be enraged beyond bounds as this is far worse than all such non-lethal actions combined.

And why are they not complaining? Why the much vocalized complaints with Bush 2 years ago concerning Gitmo and water boarding, etc. yet nothing but silence from the same folks concerning this?

tater · 09-30-11, 10:59 AM

Note that an American who dies in any attack on an otherwise legit target is not at issue. In this case, however, the American was in fact the primary target.

I'm fine with this POS getting killed, but it is because I think the second he joined the enemy he ceased to be a US citizen. I'd be fine with removing citizenship for anyone joining, or materially supporting any terrorist organization on the US list of such organizations.

The trouble is that our passports as of yet to not state this. Like the very notion of "declared war," and even the Geneva Convention, they depend on the anachronistic concept of a "state." I think that the first thing we should have done post-911, having decided it was "war," would have been to establish new rules for non-state aligned troops. I'd say that operating out of uniform, and violating other "rules of war" renders them in fact "outlaws." Meaning "outside the law," and receiving NO legal rights whatsoever. Legally non-persons.

Osmium Steele · 09-30-11, 10:52 AM

Somebody call Hell. See what the temperature is down there. Must be getting chilly, because I find myself agreeing with Mookie again.

(BTW: the scariest thing written above is "President Mookie". /shiver)

USC|18|2381 only applies if the person has been convicted of treason.

Al-Awlaki was never charged with a crime in the U.S. As an american citizen, the federal government had no legal basis to order his death, period.

The evidence was voluminous. He could have been tried in abscentia, but that never happened.

For the non-americans here, yes, his being an american citizen vs. non-citizen is very important in U.S. law, as the United States Constitution specifically prohibits the government from acting in this manner, against a citizen, without due process of law.

That being said... ...

Glad he's dead.

MothBalls · 09-30-11, 10:55 AM

I have a problem with this. If you read his profile on Wikipedia, and of course I have no idea if it is correct, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Awlaki, nor do I know if his citizenship was legally revoked or not, it states he had dual citizenship in the US and Yemen.

Regardless of the circumstance, ordering the execution of any citizen without due process goes against everything that this country was founded on and what we stand for. Everyone should be afforded due process and the laws of the land should not be set aside when convenient.

None of us here will ever know all of the facts, the whole story, what intelligence was used, etc. Again, regardless, the bottom line is an American Citizen was executed without due process. That is just wrong.

mookiemookie · 09-30-11, 10:59 AM

Ron Paul makes a very good point:

Quote:

"He was born here, Al-Awlaki was born here, he is an American citizen. He was never tried or charged for any crimes. No one knows if he killed anybody. We know he might have been associated with the underwear bomber. But if the American people accept this blindly and casually that we now have an accepted practice of the president assassinating people who he thinks are bad guys, I think it's sad.

"I think what would people ... have said about Timothy McVeigh? We didn't assassinate him, who certainly he had done it. Went and put through the courts then executed him. To start assassinating American citizens without charges, we should think very seriously about this."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news...ting-al-awlaki

AVGWarhawk · 09-30-11, 11:04 AM

Quote:

But if the American people accept this blindly and casually that we now have an accepted practice of the president assassinating people who he thinks are bad guys, I think it's sad.

Ok, lets haul in POTUS for questioning.

tater · 09-30-11, 11:19 AM

Note that removing citizenship can require a judge, even in absentia. CIA, etc goes to a cleared judge, presents evidence that the target is a bad guy associated with an organization on the State Dept. list, and the judge signs off. The guy is now just an enemy troop awaiting his virgins.

Simple solution, well within what the spirit of what is on my passport is (just correcting for non-state entities), and solves the hairy legal issues.

AVGWarhawk · 09-30-11, 11:22 AM

Quote:

The guy is now just an enemy troop awaiting his virgins.

09-30-11, 10:26 AM	#1
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Mookie is right here. Note that anyone who complained about gitmo, rendition, enhanced interrogation, etc under Bush should be enraged beyond bounds as this is far worse than all such non-lethal actions combined. My passport says that joining a foreign military can terminate my citizenship (it says "foreign state"). I think that clearly since 9-11 we should have made that SOP. John Walker Lindh (sp?) should have had his citizenship terminated, for example so he could be dealt with without legal ramifications. There was no need to inform this scumbag Obama just killed, but to dot all the "i"s they should have officially removed his citizenship with the stroke of a pen before ordering him killed. Note that the requirement of it being a "foreign state" needs to be changed in the modern world of deadly, transnational, non-state actors. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

09-30-11, 10:59 AM	#3
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Note that an American who dies in any attack on an otherwise legit target is not at issue. In this case, however, the American was in fact the primary target. I'm fine with this POS getting killed, but it is because I think the second he joined the enemy he ceased to be a US citizen. I'd be fine with removing citizenship for anyone joining, or materially supporting any terrorist organization on the US list of such organizations. The trouble is that our passports as of yet to not state this. Like the very notion of "declared war," and even the Geneva Convention, they depend on the anachronistic concept of a "state." I think that the first thing we should have done post-911, having decided it was "war," would have been to establish new rules for non-state aligned troops. I'd say that operating out of uniform, and violating other "rules of war" renders them in fact "outlaws." Meaning "outside the law," and receiving NO legal rights whatsoever. Legally non-persons. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

09-30-11, 10:52 AM	#4
Osmium Steele Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Upper midwest USA Posts: 1,101 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Somebody call Hell. See what the temperature is down there. Must be getting chilly, because I find myself agreeing with Mookie again. (BTW: the scariest thing written above is "President Mookie". /shiver) USC\|18\|2381 only applies if the person has been convicted of treason. Al-Awlaki was never charged with a crime in the U.S. As an american citizen, the federal government had no legal basis to order his death, period. The evidence was voluminous. He could have been tried in abscentia, but that never happened. For the non-americans here, yes, his being an american citizen vs. non-citizen is very important in U.S. law, as the United States Constitution specifically prohibits the government from acting in this manner, against a citizen, without due process of law. That being said... ... Glad he's dead. __________________ In the month of July of the year 1348, between the feasts of St. Benedict and of St. Swithin, a strange thing came upon England... My U297 build thread

09-30-11, 11:19 AM	#8
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Note that removing citizenship can require a judge, even in absentia. CIA, etc goes to a cleared judge, presents evidence that the target is a bad guy associated with an organization on the State Dept. list, and the judge signs off. The guy is now just an enemy troop awaiting his virgins. Simple solution, well within what the spirit of what is on my passport is (just correcting for non-state entities), and solves the hairy legal issues. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

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09-30-11, 10:55 AM	#5
MothBalls Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,012 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	I have a problem with this. If you read his profile on Wikipedia, and of course I have no idea if it is correct, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Awlaki, nor do I know if his citizenship was legally revoked or not, it states he had dual citizenship in the US and Yemen. Regardless of the circumstance, ordering the execution of any citizen without due process goes against everything that this country was founded on and what we stand for. Everyone should be afforded due process and the laws of the land should not be set aside when convenient. None of us here will ever know all of the facts, the whole story, what intelligence was used, etc. Again, regardless, the bottom line is an American Citizen was executed without due process. That is just wrong.