P51 crashes at air show

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I'd rather have a 74 year old experienced pilot than a 25 year old wet behind the ears one.

Many people better be thankful he was experienced. Word from the scene is that it was a mechanical issue of some sort, and that the aircraft behavior indicates the pilot did all he could to avoid an even bigger tragedy. If it had been an inexperienced pilot behind the stick, its likely many more would be dead today.

I am under 40, but I have a serious issue with saying that age alone should disqualify a person from doing something. There are people at 65 who should not even be allowed to drive, and there are people at 80 who do just fine. Generalities are not a basis for restricting the rights of people.

I'm not sure why your last paragraph reads like it does because I see no evidence of any contributor on this thread either generalising or saying that age alone should disqualify a person from doing something.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I'm not sure why your last paragraph reads like it does because I see no evidence of any contributor on this thread either generalising or saying that age alone should disqualify a person from doing something.

I don't think it has anything to do with the P51 itself or it's frame being too old, but physical condition or not, 74 is too old to be racing planes.

I think this is what was being referred to, Jim.

[Highbury]

I just caught the last bit of some TV coverage on it. Definitely mechanical failure. They had a picture of a part separating from the plane. Possibly one of the elevators, I just turned my head to see it for a second and it was gone.

Death toll was also reported to be at 9 now.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think this is what was being referred to, Jim.

Possibly

[Biggles]

Swedish newsite DN.se now claims there's been another accident in West Virginia today! Anyone got any American sources on that one? What I can gather, noone on the ground was hurt, but the fate of the pilot is feared to be grimmer.

[Sailor Steve]

Thanks for the heads-up, Biggles. It's on my homepage news service but I managed to miss it.
http://apnews.myway.com//article/201...D9PQHBJ83.html

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Thanks for the heads-up, Biggles. It's on my homepage news service but I managed to miss it.
http://apnews.myway.com//article/201...D9PQHBJ83.html

A T-28 Trojan. A postwar trainer from the 1950s. Oddly, the AP refers to it as a WWII-era plane.

[magic452]

Originally Posted by Highbury

I just caught the last bit of some TV coverage on it. Definitely mechanical failure. They had a picture of a part separating from the plane. Possibly one of the elevators, I just turned my head to see it for a second and it was gone.

Death toll was also reported to be at 9 now.

My son spent all day out there and got to talk to some of the pilots and that is what they all guess happened, some sort of elevator failure.
Also according to him the the pilot did indeed get some control over the plane and maneuvered it away from the stands.

Magic

[Sledgehammer427]

I'm sad because of the loss of life, but I'm so appreciative that he managed to get the plane away from the stands...It'd be like Le Mans 1955 all over again, but worse.

The worst accident in motor racing history happened at the 1955 running of the 24 hours of Le Mans. A collision between a Mercedes and an Austin-Healy sent the Mercedes' engine, hood and steering assembly in to the crowd. Nearly 80 spectators died instantly.

Also, the Magnesium bodywork of the Mercedes...if you ever took chemistry, you know what happens.

my heart goes out to the victims.
an unfortunate incident, but, as I said before, it could have been much, much worse.

[Oberon]

Yeah, that Le Mans incident was...nasty.

It's clear that Jimmy Leeward is a hero. At that speed and altitude if an elevator came off...well...it's difficult. Particularly inverted which it looks like he was at the time.

http://www.ocala.com/article/2011091...p=all&tc=pgall

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Oberon

It's clear that Jimmy Leeward is a hero. At that speed and altitude if an elevator came off...well...it's difficult. Particularly inverted which it looks like he was at the time.

I hope you would be able to repeat this to the families of the 8 victims and 70 injured.
I'm far from blaming him, especially after it was said that a mechanical failure was the main reason. The closer to spectators the better, however, "At that speed and altitude" it is the pilot who takes final responsibility not only for his life but the spectators' as well. We had similar crashes in Poland, including the famous Su-27 one, when the pilot "allegedly" maneuvered away from the crowd, and fortunately hit some unattended spot. He was also called a "hero".
Tbh I'm tired of hearing about "heroes" who first do everything to get as close as possible to the boundary between life and death and when something goes wrong and they kill less than "x" number of ppl, they are called heroes.

[CaptainHaplo]

Jim,

My comment was regarding the pilot being 74 and thus having no business flying as was quoted. If I came off a bit strong, I apologize. Just a slippery slope there.

Now - back to the original topic.

The aircraft had undergone some serious modification for the race. Now if this was a trim tab or elevator, then its in an unmodified area - the mods were on the wings and ailerons from what I understand. However, the increased speed from aero improvements may have contributed. Have to see what the investigators come up with.

However, regardless of the cause, it appears the pilot did all he could, saved lives in the process, and bought the farm doing what he loved. Thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those killed and injured. May the lost find shelter in the hand of the Creator.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by kranz

I hope you would be able to repeat this to the families of the 8 victims and 70 injured.
I'm far from blaming him, especially after it was said that a mechanical failure was the main reason. The closer to spectators the better, however, "At that speed and altitude" it is the pilot who takes final responsibility not only for his life but the spectators' as well. We had similar crashes in Poland, including the famous Su-27 one, when the pilot "allegedly" maneuvered away from the crowd, and fortunately hit some unattended spot. He was also called a "hero".
Tbh I'm tired of hearing about "heroes" who first do everything to get as close as possible to the boundary between life and death and when something goes wrong and they kill less than "x" number of ppl, they are called heroes.

Personally I think having air races so close to the crowds is asking for trouble, but as someone else said on this thread this is the first crash in the history of air racing which has had fatalities in the crowd, so that in itself must say something.
The pilot does indeed take responsibility for his life and the life of the spectators too, however the question is when the moment comes does that still ring true? Less than ten seconds from incident to the ground. Now, I do not know if he did indeed move the plane away from the spectator benches or whether it was the result of the Split-S the plane was in, it could be quite possible that Mr Leeward was unconscious at the time as a result of the Gs produced by the violent maneuver.
It is, also, quite possible that the modifications undertaken to 'Galloping Ghost' contributed to the crash, it is still far too early to tell, and perhaps I was a little early to claim Mr Leeward as a hero, however if indeed he did deliberately pull the stick to try and get the P-51 into an area where it would kill him and only him then I do believe that he is a hero and I hope that the families of those killed and injured would understand because without people who do 'push the limits' there would be no air races and there would be no people watching air races, likewise events such as Le Mans, Formula One, and any other sporting event where there have been spectating casualties. Aircraft fall out of the sky, it is a fact that you cannot remove the risk factor of flying but at the same time people want to go and see the aircraft flying and see and hear the spectacle...it is extremely regrettable but it does happen and there was no deliberate intent to injure or kill on the behalf of the pilots there, just as there is not intent to injure or kill on the behalf of Formula One drivers, Speedboat racers or Motorcycle racers, but it has happened and will happen, the only problem with air races is that you cannot put a fence in front of the aircraft like you can with speedboats and motorcars and cycles, certainly, as I have already said, it should be considered that the race itself takes place further away from the crowd...but that is something for the organizers to decide on.
More people could have been killed, yes, and it is of no comfort to those that have died, no, but at the end of the day there is a risk in both participants and spectators in air races and this was pretty much inevitable. It was luck and pilot skill (perhaps) that the aircraft wasn't fully loaded with fuel and didn't crash straight into the spectators because that would have killed many many many more, dozens even.

So, if...and I state if, Mr Leeward did pull the aircraft away from the crowd as many have speculated then yes, I would say that to those who have lost family members in this terrible accident, and I think that they would agree and understand.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Jim,

My comment was regarding the pilot being 74 and thus having no business flying as was quoted. If I came off a bit strong, I apologize. Just a slippery slope there.

No problem...I just thought it strange at the time.

I hope you would be able to repeat this to the families of the 8 victims and 70 injured.

Is there any reason whatsoever why the statement would be unacceptable?