9/11 anniversary: Attacks made US stronger, Obama says

[Crécy]

Originally Posted by August

Mock your intelligence? Hardly. But you do seem overly sensitive on the subject. Do people often mock your intelligence?

August, please. Don't sink yourself any deeper.

I don't think I'm the one who is overly sensitive on the subject. Debating over this doesn't make me overly sensitive. You act like germans acted during the nazi regime, blindly following the fatherland, refusing to criticize it. I'm not saying USA is all bad but it's clear that USA has started her downfall by self-appointing herself to a god. Acting like a sheriff of the world.
I only would like to see people questoning things and using their own brains. Not taking everything the authorities crank out as ultimate truths.

Originally Posted by MH

Good one...actually i get paid to write pro American.

Well there you go!

Be fair Crecy, August does criticise the US and doesn't follow blindly, however he does have very frequent bouts of the red white and blue syndrome where he defends without reason and follows myopicly.

I'm not saying USA is all bad but it's clear that USA has started her downfall by self-appointing herself to a god. Acting like a sheriff of the world.

That doesn't make much sense.

I only would like to see people questoning things and using their own brains. Not taking everything the authorities crank out as ultimate truths.

They do, its just that on some angles silly patriotism comes in and blurs their vision, or in the case of MH gives them full on tunnel vision.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Be fair Crecy, August does criticise the US and doesn't follow blindly, however he does have very frequent bouts of the red white and blue syndrome where he defends without reason and follows myopicly.


That doesn't make much sense.


They do, its just that on some angles silly patriotism comes in and blurs their vision, or in the case of MH gives them full on tunnel vision.

You are so predictive mr objective lol
Keep enjoing your self...

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Crécy

I don't think I'm the one who is overly sensitive on the subject. Debating over this doesn't make me overly sensitive. You act like germans acted during the nazi regime, blindly following the fatherland, refusing to criticize it. I'm not saying USA is all bad but it's clear that USA has started her downfall by self-appointing herself to a god. Acting like a sheriff of the world.

My 2 cents....
The impression I get of post 9/11 America is quite a scary one, what your saying is to some extent correct (in regards to that blind mentality), but I,d say the Nazi germany comparisson is not true of America in 2011, though they appeared to come dangerously close in 2001/2002 for obvious reasons.

Even after a trumatic event like 9/11 where peoples better judgment gets clouded with anger and fear. America is still a pretty diverse nation, while it still has its 'blind followers' it also has no shortage of people who, (after they calmed down abit) were still capable of independent and objective thinking , the ones who can still question authority when called upon.

Now as long as those people (whoever they are) are allowed to exist and speak out without fear of reprisals - then America will continue to be a 'free country'.
The day that every American is must fall in line with their government and main stream Media (or else!) ...is the day that they basically turn in to North Korea.
A mass majoriy of 'blind followers' is bad, extreamely BAD for any countries health and indeed the human race in general.

Originally Posted by Crécy

I only would like to see more people questoning things and using their own brains. Not taking everything the authorities crank out as ultimate truths.

Yeah true - but on a world wide scale, not just in the U.S (and see the extra word I inserted into your quote)

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by JU_88

America is still a pretty diverse nation, while it still has its 'blind followers' it also has no shortage of people who, (after they calmed down abit) were still capable of independent and objective thinking , the ones who can still question authority when called upon.

Which creates a semi-related question:

Can a person by his/her own reasoning become a supporter of what authorities say? Because it seems that whenever people are being called to think for themselves, it also includes the implication of disagreeing with the authorities. I for one agree with quite many things that my country's authorities do and say, while disagreeing with others. Am I a brainwashed sheep?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Which creates a semi-related question:

Can a person by his/her own reasoning become a supporter of what authorities say? Because it seems that whenever people are being called to think for themselves, it also includes the implication of disagreeing with the authorities. I for one agree with quite many things that my country's authorities do and say, while disagreeing with others. Am I a brainwashed sheep?

That finely some sound of reason.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Which creates a semi-related question:

Can a person by his/her own reasoning become a supporter of what authorities say? Because it seems that whenever people are being called to think for themselves, it also includes the implication of disagreeing with the authorities. I for one agree with quite many things that my country's authorities do and say, while disagreeing with others. Am I a brainwashed sheep?

No it doesn't!
Of course there is a big difference if you actually approached it in a reasonably intelligent manner beforehand, then decided that you agree with it. But many people dont do that
They just follow popular opinion and are instantly willing to belive anything the government or media tells them at face value - which is increadibly trusting when you consider the frequencey they have been proven to lie and spin.

Bringing you truth and accuracy is WAY, WAY down their list of priorities. Why? because they aren't required to, too many are willing to swallow up any old crap they come out with. So if its in their interest to spin it in favor of their political alignment, shareholders or corperate ties or whatever, they will quite happily do so, they dont care about morality.

The same can be true of those who follow unpopular opinion for aguments sake, lets say you joined the '9/11 truth movment' based on one persons argument or some crappy video of building 7, if you failed to actually reserch their allegations properly first, that would make you sheep too!

Doesn't matter who tells us what, its the way our though process responds to it (if at all).
Everything deserves a fair anaylasis no matter how plausible or implausible it sounds at first, thankfully most everyday things only require a few seconds or less, but politics and major events require a hell of a lot more than that, since they are rarely black and white!

Trouble is, people often make an automatic assumption based on what and who we would PREFER to believe.
Honestly? eveyone could do a bit better than that if they bothered to try.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by JU_88

But many people dont do that
They just follow popular opinion and are instantly willing to belive anything the government or media tells them at face value - which is increadibly trusting when you consider how often they have been proven to lie and spin.

True enough. But as you pointed out, some people also base their thinking on the idea that if the majority thinks X, then X must be wrong. These people are usually the first and loudest in making their individualism known, which I find mostly disgusting egotripping.

Especially the most major media outlets, bringing you truth and accuracy is WAY, WAY down their list of priorities. Why? because they aren't required to simply because too many are willing to swallow up any old crap they come out with.

Media also has to sell. I haven't often seen media spouting outright lies, but "colored" truths are fairly common. Still doesn't in my opinion justify the "don't believe anything any media ever says" attitude that some people have. You just have to understand that it's text written by people for people.

Trouble is, people are often make an automatic assumption based on what they would PREFER to beilive. Honestly? everyone could do a bit better than that if they bothered to try.

And here we find nothing but agreement.

[Dowly]

What world needs is more objective thinking.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

True enough. But as you pointed out, some people also base their thinking on the idea that if the majority thinks X, then X must be wrong. These people are usually the first and loudest in making their individualism known, which I find mostly disgusting egotripping.

Yup, those people end up as (if not more) narrow minded as the people they are against. same thought process - just at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Media also has to sell. I haven't often seen media spouting outright lies, but "colored" truths are fairly common. Still doesn't in my opinion justify the "don't believe anything any media ever says" attitude that some people have. You just have to understand that it's text written by people for people..

Never beliving anything the media say, is just as stupid as beliving everything they say. Questioning on the hand is quite different... And that means questioning where appropriate, not just for questionings sake. If a small part of us thinks something isnt quite right, it shouldn't be ignored.

Im saying, at least take it with pinch of salt and maybe flick between more than just 1 or 2 sources for the important stuff.
In my book, spinning is already half way to lying. When you spin infomation, you are not telling as it is - simple as that.
Maybe if we meet two opposing spins in the middle we might actually have soming accurate? (that is a joke of course)

Of course there is a big difference if you actually approached it in a reasonably intelligent manner beforehand, then decided that you agree with it. But many people dont do that

Its double edged, you have people who do that and will approach issues in an intelligent manner, but they can suddenly and without reason become bleating sheep based on nothing but nationalism or national myths.

If you want at a really telling example you have to look no further than the last republican debate and the sheeplike "patriotic" reaction Ron Paul got over 9/11

You are so predictive mr objective lol

Accurate though, you will without doubt as soon as your country is in a major topic again adopt your bunker mentality and try and defend everything long after your arguements have fallen apart once more.
A perfect example of looking through the white and blue glasses.

[JU_88]

@Tribesman

That is what people do in hard times, be it war/ terror, economical, natural distaster or what ever... they huddle round the leader / look to the higher order, in religious countries they look to god, in capitalist countries we look to our governments to act.
Its perfecty natural in time of crisis (and in 9/11's case, a time of shock.)

Where things can go wrong is when a government DOES act on its peoples initial emotions, by way of a 'knee-jerk' reaction.
People need a little time to calm down and collect themselves. Actions based on emotions are not usually rational or clever ones.
(Such as calling for nuke strikes on afghanistan, or beating up 'middle eastern looking' people.
those hysterical people needed to get a bloody grip!)
In the long run, you certainly dont want political or military decisions to be influenced by these 'lash-out emotions'.

[August]

Originally Posted by JU_88

They just follow popular opinion and are instantly willing to belive anything the government or media tells them at face value - which is increadibly trusting when you consider the frequencey they have been proven to lie and spin.

I have never in my long life met someone like that. I have however met plenty of folks who just assumed the person they were talking to did, but it's always because that person holds a viewpoint they don't share.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Which creates a semi-related question:

Can a person by his/her own reasoning become a supporter of what authorities say? Because it seems that whenever people are being called to think for themselves, it also includes the implication of disagreeing with the authorities. I for one agree with quite many things that my country's authorities do and say, while disagreeing with others. Am I a brainwashed sheep?

Agreeing with specific government policies represents brainwashing no more than disagreeing with them. The danger becomes apparent when the speaker or writer agrees (or disagrees) with all stated policies across the board seemingly without analyzing each one. Many party-liners in America do exactly that. If you're a Conservative you hate gays, abortion, any kind of social welfare and of course any government spending. If you're a Liberal you believe that the Government is the answer to every problem man can have. Of course there are huge numbers of people who don't agree with every policy but support the party that mostly agrees with them.

Blindly following anything without question is dangerous, and that includes the concept of hating the party in power, or government in general, so much that you condemn anyone who agrees with any policy put forth by that party.

So no, you're not brainwashed because you agree with some policy or other, but there are people who will tell you you are. Are they brainwashed? Possibly. I'd say you have to worry about the ones who are all one or the other. Anybody who actually thinks for himself will never be that absolute, or convinced he's right all the time.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Anybody who actually thinks for himself will never be that absolute, or convinced he's right all the time.

Spot on!