Top Nazi Rudolf Hess exhumed from 'pilgrimage' grave

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Does the video explain, why Mein Kampf speaks of exterminating people?

that would be impossible, because it doesn't.

[Krauter]

Where is Steve? If anyone can cram a trolls terrible argument where the sun doesn't shine it's him.

@ Lord Justice: Aye, but it gives me an abundance of pleasure to watch them squirm when they actually need to defend their arguments rather then redirecting the argument away.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Where is Steve? If anyone can cram a trolls terrible argument where the sun doesn't shine it's him.

Right here, catching up. And you're wrong about me, at least in this case, because I don't have all the answers. I've seen enough to have the opinion that deniers mostly want Nazism to come back, and even once had the pleasure of talking to a neo-Nazi who insisted that it was all a lie, the Nazis never killed any jews. When I asked what his solution was, he replied "Kill all the lying Jews."

So my question to this guy is the same: Assuming you are right, what is your answer to the problem?

Oh, and Hottentot is doing a great job, so why should I butt in? I haven't even read Mein Kampf. On the other hand I do have a great big book called The Auschwitz Chronical, which contains all the records for the entire existence of that camp. Unfortunately it's currently in my storage. Fortunately I should be moving all that stuff to my apartment tomorrow.

Now I have to risk stepping on some toes, and please remember it's just my opinion. Why is it against the law to deny the holocaust in Europe? I think it's because there is an absolutism hard-wired into the German psyche, that says something must be one thing or the other. I believe that the same gene that led to Nazi intolerance in the first place now leads to absolute intolerance for anything the Nazis did or stood for. I first started thinking this in my early days as a model builder when I would read requests in magazines for German aircraft markings, since European model manufacturers couldn't put swastikas in their kits.

Preposterous? Probably. But my grandmother was from Germany and I see it in myself. But I also have to admit that it's no more likely than horoscopes being true. So I don't know, and no, I don't really believe it. But every time I grind my teeth when someone walks across the street against the light, I wonder about myself.

As to Cosnpiracy Theory, I'll bet he believes this absolutely, and while he tries to get everyone else to question their beliefs, he never questions himself. He's either absolutely convince he's absolutely right, with no room for even a question, or else, as someone pointed out, he's one of our keelhauled trolls returned for some fun.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I haven't even read Mein Kampf.

Offtopic, but still: I recommend doing that, if you can find time. It's a fascinating book. People love to talk about Hitler, but not many people for some reason take the opportunity to study his thoughts and backgrounds, even when they are readily available in a convenient book form. It's a great source and can be easily found online too (that's how I found the English quotes for my post).

Oh, and thanks for the compliment .

[joea]

If I said what I thought to a couple of members - one of whom let me down espeically reading other posts - I'd get put in the brig so I better calm down before I post something stupid.

Quite a jail term, for a diplomat on a peace mission.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Snestorm

Quite a jail term, for a diplomat on a peace mission.

Peace in this case would be giving the Axis a free hand in Europe, lets not forget that this happened about a month before Operation Barbarossa and while there was a stalemate going on in North Africa (six months before Operation Crusader pushes the Axis back in to Libya). Any peace with the Allies would have been a clear 'win' for the Germans at this point.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by joea

If I said what I thought to a couple of members - one of whom let me down espeically reading other posts - I'd get put in the brig so I better calm down before I post something stupid.

Oh noes! Please, please, please don't go! We'll bake a cake, if you stay!

[joea]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Oh noes! Please, please, please don't go! We'll bake a cake, if you stay!

If you're not being sarcastic, I wasn't planning to leave the forum - just saying I better not do anything that will ensure I get a vacation if you catch my drift.

I prefer chocolate cake btw.

[Gerald]

On Wednesday 20 July 2011 - the anniversary of the attempt on Hitler's life in 1944 - the public was informed that the grave of Rudolf Hess, the "Fuehrer's deputy", had been razed before daybreak.

Beyond the fascinating coincidence in the date - there will surely be further speculation on this - the decision by Hess's heirs was surprising.

They wanted to commit his mortal remains to the waves and organise a funeral at sea for a man whose mystique and influence on the far-right was strongly linked to the existence of his grave in the Bavarian village of Wunsiedel.

He was already one the most interesting figures in post-war Germany, being the only high-ranking Nazi serving a life sentence imposed by the Nuremberg war-crimes court - Albert Speer, for instance, was released in 1966.

'Anti-German plot'

Hess owes his ambiguous fame to the circumstances of his death. He was found hanged in a summer house in Berlin's Spandau Prison, where he had spent the previous 20 years.

The official version - contested by right-wingers of all stripes - was that he committed suicide to end his long imprisonment.

For the German and international far-right movement, this was clear evidence that the powers that be had tried to suppress the truth about an "anti-German" plot dating back to the war years.

According to this version of events, the Allied forces - notably the British secret service - ignored the true purpose of Hess's flight to Britain in 1941. He was taking a peace plan to Churchill, he told his interrogators.

This idea made Hess the perfect figure to portray the Nazis as victims, rather than aggressors.

Britain had started World War II to destroy Germany, and Hess was captured in Scotland to crush the peaceful intentions of Nazi Germany.

Even the fact that Hitler declared him insane did not dent this legend.

Revitalised myth

Moreover the resurgent Nazi scene in recent years has gradually recognised the potential of this myth to attract young people susceptible to tales of injustice.

What started as a tiny demonstration of a handful of Nazi activists in the 1990s had turned into thousands regularly filling the streets of Wunsiedel by early 2000s.

Everybody who looked at such scenes - including myself and my academic colleagues - felt uncomfortable. Most of the demonstrators were young and dressed like average heavy-metal kids - until you looked at their T-shirts and tattoos.

The Hess myth, modernised to satisfy a desire for victimhood, made the Wundsiedel commemorations alluring to young people. But it also led the Constitutional Court to ban the event in 2005, as the potential for the recruitment of new blood into the Neo-Nazi movement got increasingly obvious.

However the court order had limited effect on such gatherings, which continued less frequently and at a smaller scale elsewhere. But then Hess had become a kind of right-wing Che Guevara, with his portrait on shirts, buttons and posters.

In the end the family agreed to terminate the lease on the grave.

Thus an event that many would have thought highly improbably until now became reality on Wednesday evening. What might be the consequences of this startling decision?

Nazi zombie

Firstly, it is no coincidence that the relatives and officials chose to eliminate every physical trace of a figure with a vast potential for creating right-wing legends.

As was the case for Osama Bin Laden some weeks ago, the authorities understand the power of a permanent shrine to a highly controversial figure.

It becomes a place of pilgrimage, a focus for irrational and uncontrollable worship.

Secondly, the far-right movement has lost a crucial place embodying myths and legends that give it a friendly face. The neo-Nazis desperately need to celebrate the memory of an attractive "hero" for the benefit of new recruits.

And thirdly, there will be an increased potential for violence of all kinds - from street unrest to digital stalking - by the far-right.

Deprived of a leading rallying figure, the movement will feel that its noble tradition has been humiliated by unjust powers yet again.

Ultimately it is possible that a renewed cult could rise again around Hess, the ultimate Nazi zombie.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14244165

Note: Update Record,22 July 2011 Last updated at 00:24 GMT

[Hottentot]

Oh. Well, I thought I just read it from the book itself and provided direct quotes. But OK, if you say so, I guess it must be so then. Silly me. Can you, oh master of masters, please tell me then, what it just said?

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Oh. Well, I thought I just read it from the book itself and provided direct quotes. But OK, if you say so, I guess it must be so then. Silly me. Can you, oh master of masters, please tell me then, what it just said?

Silly Hottentot, readings for kids!

[HunterICX]

Well I could come with a witty line wondering why people are responding to his bull, but then I remember something...this is the GT

HunterICX

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Silly Hottentot, readings for kids!

Actually I'm starting to wonder why I'm here. It's not like this thread was about emotionally approaching historically sensitive subjects in black & white "you evil me good" mentality and no one has even said Stalin or Lenin yet. Bleh, did you have to drop me back to reality?

[Lord Justice]

I wish you all well, further posts serves to test and put stain on your respected characters, I readily observe advantage noob.