[REL] Open Horizons II (old thread)

[Trevally.]

Originally Posted by gap

I am still looking into it, as it takes time to ascertain all the dates due to the ambiguities that I was mentioning yesterday.

On this topic, can you guys tell me your opinion?
Wich date shoud I use as switching point between neutral and Axis/Allied diplomatic state of each nation? its first unofficial skirmishes with future enemies or its explicite declaration of war?

The answer to this question is crucial for the upcoming campaign when these skirmishes took place at sea, as it is the case of the examples that I was referring to in my previous posts.

Yes, this is a hard question to answer.

The example you gave where US escorts made up Atlantic convoys must mean that they would attack any uboat sighted even before war declared.
I think this should be reflected in the campaign.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Trevally.

Yes, this is a hard question to answer.

The example you gave where US escorts made up Atlantic convoys must mean that they would attack any uboat sighted even before war declared.
I think this should be reflected in the campaign.

yep Trevally
not only they would do it; they did!

"On 10 April 1941 Niblack dropped depth charges aimed at a German U-boat, the first hostile action between American and German forces during the Second World War."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Niblack_(DD-424)

Anyway, I've another amletic doubt now and I hope tha someone of you can help me to sort it out:

as far as you know, is the side set in DefSide.cfg file affecting only the behaviour of naval and merchant units, or more in general it affects also the possibility to refit in some ports, depending on the "friendliness" of the correspinding nation?

I ask so because in stock game, after its defeat (from oct 1939 on) Poland is set as an Axis nation. This is logical if only land control is conseidered, as Germany had full control on Polish territory.
Though, Polish government-in-exile never surrendered to Axis power, and its army and navy partecipated extensively into the war effort alongside Allied nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_...ces_.28West.29). Same goes for Netherlands and Belgium. By taking in consideration this fact, we should set these countries as Allied for the whole duration of the conflict.

Do you think we can safely do it?

[Zedi]

There is a trick can be used, same as is for the french now... there is a roster entry called FreeFrench and they are set as allied. Same can happen with the polish, belgian and other occupied nations.

Anyway the defside.cfg need to be fixed because after 43 its not much accuracy because the stock game end in 43. And Poland is listed as axis until end of 45, which is wrong. Thats why I need you Gap to fix this cfg, please.

The nation colors are controlled in the campaign by the PoliticalTerritory1939 layer where the colored shapes of the nations are set to spawn or despawn at a defined date. For example, France blue color is set to spawn at 24.06.1940, same date as in the defside.cfg .. but will last until end of 45.

Wish there could be another way to control this because this part was a pain for me in the extended OH campaign.. had to search for every nation war status.. wasted a lot of time with this. Same apply for the port trafic, ships spawn and despawn at certain dates and this is controlled also only in the campaign. Another reason why I need a good historical accurate defside cfg so I can keep everything on the same page.

Is anyone good in working with the menu editor and can set me up a new campaign entry in the campaign selection menu?

[gap]

Originally Posted by Zedi

There is a trick can be used, same as is for the french now... there is a roster entry called FreeFrench and they are set as allied. Same can happen with the polish, belgian and other occupied nations.

Good idea
I'm splitting those nations in two, i.e. Poland and FreePoland. Then, yo'll have the task to assign them the right kind of merchant/naval traffic in the right dates.

Originally Posted by Zedi

Anyway the defside.cfg need to be fixed because after 43 its not much accuracy because the stock game end in 43. And Poland is listed as axis until end of 45, which is wrong. Thats why I need you Gap to fix this cfg, please.

yes, I've tracked down several inacurracies, not only toward the end of the conflict. For instance, in the .cfg file that you sent to me most of the commonwealth nations are set to align on the Allied side on September 10th 1939. According to historical records this is true for Canada, but wrong for Australia (real date: Sept. 3), South Africa (Sept. 6), etc.
I am trying do correct these errors. I hope I can finish before tomorrow

[Zedi]

Originally Posted by gap

Good idea
I'm splitting those nations in two, i.e. Poland and FreePoland. Then, yo'll have the task to assign them the right kind of merchant/naval traffic in the right dates.

Free Poland will sail in convoys and Poland in the normal coasta traffic. But as far as I know, there were no polish ships in the convoys. But I found a lot of ships from Greece, Norway, Panama, Sweden. So I will need a "free" entry for these ones too. Im using Hague records for documentation over the ww2 convoys.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Zedi

Free Poland will sail in convoys and Poland in the normal coasta traffic. But as far as I know, there were no polish ships in the convoys. But I found a lot of ships from Greece, Norway, Panama, Sweden. So I will need a "free" entry for these ones too. Im using Hague records for documentation over the ww2 convoys.

According to the info that I was able collect from the net, Polish never surrendered formally to German (neither to Russian, for this matter) invaders. Hence, Germany could not issue any puppet government there and they ruled directly on the occupied Poland. As a consequence, I think that around Polish ports shipping traffic was made mostly of German (and other Axis nations's) ships, but it is reasonable that some ships kept sailing around Polish coastal waters under their national flag, just as you're suggesting.

As for "Free Poland" traffic, please read carefully this short article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_...ld_War_II#Navy

seems that most of Polish Navy was made up of ships provided by British after the beginning of the war. Polish were heavily invoved alongside Allied Navies both in convoys escorting and in task forces operations mostly in Atlantic Ocean, Baltic, North and Mediterranean Sea (notably they partecipated to the operation agaist German Carrier Bismarck!).
Besides this, according to the same article, Polish Merchant Fleet had an important role in the history of the conflict. Though, in wich convoys Polish merchants were found it is something out of my (limited) knowledge. I'll try to do so extra research on it if you're interested

[Zedi]

Im working on the Arctic Convoys campaign and followed very careful the PQ and JW convoys.. found only 1 ship. See here http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/russian/...ome.htm~rumain

Same apply for the Atlantic convoys. I can insert polish ships as many as I want, but I dont wanna hear later criticism about interpreting in my own way the history Anyway, I will use the freepolish ships, but not so many. Waiting four the cfg file so I can start working out the convoys. Thanks.

[PL_Andrev]

Originally Posted by gap

I'm splitting those nations in two, i.e. Poland and FreePoland. Then, yo'll have the task to assign them the right kind of merchant/naval traffic in the right dates.

You're wrong. This in no reason to split Polish to "Polish" and "Free Polish". As a our colleague told, there are no occupied Poland territory like Vichy's France or Quisling's Norvay.

Germany and the Soviet Union invaded, on September 1 and 17 respectively, their respective sides of Poland, dividing the country between them. The Soviet Union denied the idea of Polish behaviour in any shape, the Polish state was to be abolished once and for all, and the Polish territory completely annexed and incorporated by the two aggressors (the Third Reich and the USSR).

As you see the idea of "collaborated Polish units" is the capital crime for all polish players.

About polish navy units at IIWW:

Military - (all units at bottom section of this page, translated from polish wikipedia):
http://translate.google.pl/translate...i%2FORP_Conrad

Merchants - (all polish units during IIWW were military troop transports)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Batory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Pi%C5%82sudski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Chrobry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Czar

[Sbygneus]

Originally Posted by gap

According to the info that I was able collect from the net, Polish never surrendered formally to German (neither to Russian, for this matter) invaders. Hence, Germany could not issue any puppet government there and they ruled directly on the occupied Poland. As a consequence, I think that around Polish ports shipping traffic was made mostly of German (and other Axis nations's) ships, but it is reasonable that some ships kept sailing around Polish coastal waters under their national flag, just as you're suggesting.

As for "Free Poland" traffic, please read carefully this short article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_...ld_War_II#Navy

seems that most of Polish Navy was made up of ships provided by British after the beginning of the war. Polish were heavily invoved alongside Allied Navies both in convoys escorting and in task forces operations mostly in Atlantic Ocean, Baltic, North and Mediterranean Sea (notably they partecipated to the operation agaist German Carrier Bismarck!).
Besides this, according to the same article, Polish Merchant Fleet had an important role in the history of the conflict. Though, in wich convoys Polish merchants were found it is something out of my (limited) knowledge. I'll try to do so extra research on it if you're interested

This is the list of Polish merchant ships I know, hit by U-boats in convoys:

PADEREWSKI motor merchant sunk 30 Dec 1942 by U-214 4,426 tons
ROZEWIE Motor merchant sunk 6 Aug 1942 by U-66 766 tons
WARSAW steam merchant sunk 26 Dec 1941 by U-559 2,487 tons
ZAGLOBA steam merchant sunk 6 Feb 1943 by U-262 2,864 tons
(straggler from convoy SC-118)

In another book I read that the only survivor from HMCS St.Croix town class destroyer was rescued by Polish merchant WISLA in 1943 convoy ON202

So there were some Polish merchant units by the 1939 in foreign ports, that later took part in convoys.

I hope it helps somehow

[THE_MASK]

Never noticed this before . Is it easy to use ?

[Zedi]

Is how you create convoys and traffic and control their content. For example, is how I create the new coastal traffic for the new nations.

Create a new group and call it TRAF_ES. Edit the group and from the roster choose Spain. Check only the merchants on the right side and at the Type use Generic if you want random merchants pulled into the group. Add them to the convoy and set the number of the ships. Play with the spawn rate if you want more randomness. Like... 1 Generic cargo 100% 1 Liberty cargo 50%

If you want to add escort, you add them to the escort section using the same way as you did for the merchants. You can mix these ship by adding more nations to a single convoy, but you have to be careful with their side. When don, Save then add this group to a generator in the editor and control their route with a mission. Check the [TEC] for working with ME, there is a lot of helpful info about working with ME.


Any news on reworking the terrain for Kiel?

[THE_MASK]

Night shift atm , but next week i can do a bit .