Indiana Court rules that defending your home against illegal police entry is illegal

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

2. Police officers can enter your home without a warrant or immediate cause for search and entry.

Back that truck up a second.

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Back that truck up a second.

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

tell it to the supreme court of indiana

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

2. Police officers can enter your home without a warrant or immediate cause for search and entry.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Back that truck up a second.

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Before we get excited, this is not what the court ruling said. What the Indiana courts ruling said was that it was upholding the existing exemptions for a warrentless search. The police, in Indiana, can already enter and search your house without a warrent if specific factors apply. That is all the Indiana Supreme Court's decision said (page 5). The court's decision did not increase the number of exemptions nor did it remove the already existing requirement for a search warrant under normal circumstances.

This is why one should never rely on the media to report the facts, always go to the original source.

So the householder was the person who called the police to her home, the incident with the police and Barnes first started out in the street, the home barnes claimed he was defending was the one he was being thrown out of.
Whodathunkit, if you call the police to your house as an emergency they can come in, if the person causing the disturbance at that house acts like a jerk he gets arrested.

[gimpy117]

Defend...do you mean use force on the officers? As far as I know, Its an established precedent that you are not allowed to use force against another person unless you are threatened, even going so far as to not being able to shoot intruders like burglars unless you can prove there was danger to yourself or others. A Police officer entering you home Illegally isn't an offense that warrants force, so no, as crummy as it sounds I can see why you are not allowed to "defend your home" from somebody who is not putting your safety in danger.

Ind. Code Section 35-41-3-2 (b) A person: (1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and (2) does not have a duty to retreat; if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling.

thats the section of the Illinois law. I think the fact of the matter is, is that it would be very difficult to prove force was needed to defend yourself against a police officer. Since It says it has to be "necessary", which it was not, that is why its unlawful.

[Armistead]

The issue is not defending against a police officer, but the fear of bodily harm to you or your family. If I'm innocent and wake up half asleep and hear someone beating down my door or walking through my home, that's a problem. That's why police need just cause..Believe me when a criminal hears the door being caved in and the word police, he knows what's happening, innocent people would have cause for suspect. One of the biggest scams of crooks is acting police.

Mistakes happen, but proper codes, warrants, etc, before entering homes. If not, watch how many police officers and home owners start getting shot.

In NC you can shoot someone if they break into your home and you feel threatened. The key is to say your threatened. In every case I've read, the fact someone entered your home implied enough threat. Now, we have had a few dumbarses goof things up for themselves..

Someone enters my home day or night, my family is here they're gonna get shot be damned. Now, if it was so obvious I could stop it without, sure, but if I feel the least threat of harm could be done to my wife or kids, I would..

Heck, my grandmother killed her husbands best friend in the 30's and shot him..They were supposed to be out of town, but came in late and were sneaking the car out of the barn pushing it down the road...she thought it was being stolen. They gave the guy a funeral, filed a report with the local Sheriff and that was it.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

Defend...do you mean use force on the officers? As far as I know, Its an established precedent that you are not allowed to use force against another person unless you are threatened, even going so far as to not being able to shoot intruders like burglars unless you can prove there was danger to yourself or others. A Police officer entering you home Illegally isn't an offense that warrants force, so no, as crummy as it sounds I can see why you are not allowed to "defend your home" from somebody who is not putting your safety in danger.

That varies from state to state. The problem is knowing whether you are threatened. If you catch someone in your home with your television in his hands you can be fairly certain you're not in enough danger to warrant shooting him out-of-hand, but you certainly are able to "detain" him by making him think you may shoot him anyway.

On the other hand if someone kicks in your door you can be pretty sure they have harmful intent, which makes it a problem if it's the representatives of the law doing the kicking. How do you know they're really the police? How do you know the police aren't there to just kill you? You don't.

Here in Utah the law pretty much allows you to shoot anyone who comes into your home without your permission.

§ 76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation
(1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
(b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
(2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony.

Emphasis is mine. Notice how they hedged their bets. If you force your way in then you are a threat. If you sneak in, well, you're a threat anyway. If you sneak in and I think you may be a threat, then you're a threat. Basically, if I catch you in my home without my permission, Utah law says you're pretty much screwed. This applies to everyone, including cops.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

On the other hand if someone kicks in your door you can be pretty sure they have harmful intent, which makes it a problem if it's the representatives of the law doing the kicking. How do you know they're really the police? How do you know the police aren't there to just kill you? You don't.

how do i know? Because the police don't do assassinations, they are there to arrest you, not kill you. If however, you brandish a weapon at them like you suggest, you will have a good chance of getting shot.

[August]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

how do i know? Because the police don't do assassinations, they are there to arrest you, not kill you. If however, you brandish a weapon at them like you suggest, you will have a good chance of getting shot.

How do you know they are the police?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

how do i know? Because the police don't do assassinations, they are there to arrest you, not kill you. If however, you brandish a weapon at them like you suggest, you will have a good chance of getting shot.

Are you really that naive? If they knock on your door, which they usually do, and announce themselves, which they usually do, and give you a chance to come quietly, which they're supposed to do but often don't, then yes, it is your obligation legally, morally and intelligently, to obey and sort out mistakes later.

If anyone comes into your house unannounced then they are asking for whatever they get. You love to have the government tell you what to do, and you are of the "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" mentality. Maybe where you live the government comes first and the individual second. The State I live in believes that the individual is sovereign, and government agencies are obligated to support that idea. The cops I've met consider an armed citizen their best backup, and like the idea of having them around. You say you own a couple of guns, but you seem awfully terrified of them.