Donald Trump made Obama release his birth certificate

[August]

Originally Posted by MaddogK

This is the question the courts haven't answered. They've refused to hear the case 8 times so far. But as to SS post- I still havent seen the revelance of the rules regarding children born abroad to this discussion. please explain.

He's not claiming that Obama was born abroad.

[MaddogK]

Originally Posted by August

He's not claiming that Obama was born abroad.

So why'd he post the laws granting citizenship to children born abroad ?
And where in those posted laws does it say anything about 'natural born' citizenship ?

[razark]

Originally Posted by MaddogK

So why'd he post the laws granting citizenship to children born abroad ?

Someone posted about needing two parents for "natural born citizenship".

Originally Posted by MaddogK

Natural born by definition means born of 2 citizen parents.

The law mentioned shows only one is needed (for one born outside the US). If only one is needed for one born outside the US, I think we can dispense with needing two for someone born in the US.

Originally Posted by MaddogK

And where in those posted laws does it say anything about 'natural born' citizenship ?

That phrase has not been defined in US law.

[August]

Razark answers it nicely.

[MaddogK]

Originally Posted by razark

Someone posted about needing two parents for "natural born citizenship".
yup- me

The law mentioned shows only one is needed (for one born outside the US). If only one is needed for one born outside the US, I think we can dispense with needing two for someone born in the US.
assumption that it applies here, BUT consider citizenship is granted to a child born here with ZERO citizen parents.(illegal aliens)

That phrase has not been defined in US law.
WILL have to be addressed per above

'natural born' has a specific meaning with regards to the constitution.

[razark]

Originally Posted by MaddogK

'natural born' has a specific meaning with regards to the constitution.

Please state that meaning, and the source.

[MaddogK]

Originally Posted by razark

Please state that meaning, and the source.

At this time (I'm at work) I can only add to my previous examples:
The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787
by James Madison

(5) 'Sect. 2. No person except a natural born citizen or a Citizen of the U. S. at the time of the adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the office of President; nor shall any person be elected to that office, who shall be under the age of thirty five years, and who has not been in the whole, at least fourteen years a resident within the U. S.'

http://www.constitution.org/dfc/dfc_0904.htm



Vattel: The law of Nations, book 1

§ 212. Citizens and natives.

The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.

http://www.constitution.org/vattel/vattel_01.htm

http://www.constitution.org/ussc/98-0097c.htm
Also, read the last paragraph in a dissent by Justice Thomas.

I'll pull out my Franklin and congressional congress quotes when I get home, but as SCOTUS hasn't directly addressed the 'natural born citizenship' requirement it's difficult to quote any caselaw. I'm feeling a bit like a baited rabbit who peeks out from behind a rock, while a dozen guns take aim.

[razark]

Originally Posted by MaddogK

At this time (I'm at work) I can only add to my previous examples:

Quotes and so forth are fine, but our nation is not run on quotes. It is run on laws.

Originally Posted by MaddogK

I'll pull out my Franklin and congressional congress quotes when I get home, but as SCOTUS hasn't directly addressed the 'natural born citizenship' requirement it's difficult to quote any caselaw. I'm feeling a bit like a baited rabbit who peeks out from behind a rock, while a dozen guns take aim.

Until someone addresses the question with legislation or court decisions, the term will remain undefined. Until then, it's simply a lot of different people's opinions.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by MaddogK

At this time (I'm at work) I can only add to my previous examples:
The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787
by James Madison

And by that Constitutional standard Obama fits the bill. It should be obvious that in that context 'Natural Born' meant born in this country.

The Vattel reference is interesting, but Vattel was writing an opinion based on common law. Unless you think something written by a Frenchman which is not even law in France should be binding in the United States. It is important to our thinking and certainly a basis for legal opinion, but it is not the law we live by.

I'll pull out my Franklin and congressional congress quotes when I get home, but as SCOTUS hasn't directly addressed the 'natural born citizenship' requirement it's difficult to quote any caselaw. I'm feeling a bit like a baited rabbit who peeks out from behind a rock, while a dozen guns take aim.

The very fact that you use the acronym favored by one side of the political spectrum shows your bias. And nobody's targetting you. You chose to take a stance different than some others, and they choose to disagree. The fact that you on one occasion use a dismissive tone to seemingly show superiority doesn't help. No one likes to be talked down to.

[Onkel Neal]

One thing is for sure, the media is really trying to take Trump apart. Every title I see about him tries desperately to slant him as a fringe candidate. Hey, maybe he has a real chance! Now you may say, he is a fringe candidate. Yeah, but so was Obama, and he got elected.

Honestly, i think the whole birth issue, is veiled or coded racism. If he was a white guy, nobody would question his citizenship.

He's just as much white as he is black, my friend. It's old style racist to call someone black just because part of their ancestry is black.

[AVGWarhawk]

Trump has a snowballs chance in the desert. He will only prove to be a distraction.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

He's just as much white as he is black, my friend. It's old style racist to call someone black just because part of their ancestry is black.

Really, history shows otherwise, anyone that was half black and white were always considered black and until recent years most were treated worse. In most cultures, including America, a half breed of any race was considered worse.

[Onkel Neal]

Yep, and like I pointed out, that was old style racism.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Yep, and like I pointed out, that was old style racism.

So there's a new style racism? Honestly, you'll have to explain that one to me. Racism is racism as far as i know, there's only so many definitions of it in the English dictionary. So what's the difference between the new and the old?