Lessons From Nuremberg

[Catfish]

Hello,

Originally Posted by Vendor

with ten thousands dieing [I]in the US,yes, unfortunately, regrettable, but it happened to other countries also, not because it gets better, but having said this, it was war, and everything went very quickly in the course of events.

It did not begin with "the war", nor did it end with it.
I did not mean this as an excuse or comparison for Nazi atrocities, but that the US were obviously not so morally superior if they used the very scum they fought against, without a conviction, for their own ideas.
This almost lead to a revolution in Germany in 1968, when a well "re-educated" anti-nazi youth found out they were still governed by those responsible for the war, in jurisdiction, politics and industry, and furthermore actively helped by the CIA, and thus the US.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello,

It did not begin with "the war", nor did it end with it.
I did not mean this as an excuse or comparison for Nazi atrocities, but that the US were obviously not so morally superior if they used the very scum they fought against, without a conviction, for their own ideas.
This almost lead to a revolution in Germany in 1968, when a well "re-educated" anti-nazi youth found out they were still governed by those responsible for the war, in jurisdiction, politics and industry, and furthermore actively helped by the CIA, and thus the US.

Greetings,
Catfish

This has apparently been a misunderstanding of words, I have not claimed that you "started" with the war that word, and there have been away from my side, I apologize ... can hardly blame the 40 Hrs lack of sleep..

[Bilge_Rat]

Nuremberg was unavoidable after the full extent of nazi crimes became known. There are a couple of good books on it, for example this one which I read some years back:

http://www.amazon.com/Justice-at-Nur...2527157&sr=1-3#_

On the whole, the trials were very fair and even most Germans agreed with that assessment at the time.

The biggest problem was that the trials were rushed and there was so much evidence that not all of it was presented at the trial.

For example, if the full extent of Speer's complicity in the slave labour program had been exposed, he would have been sentenced to death, as he should have been.

The only other sentence I would quibble with would be the death sentence for Jodl and Keitel. In their positions as chief of staff, they were not really in a position to give orders. A 20 year sentence would have been more appropriate.

As for what happened after the war, the initial plan was to have a whole series of trials and intense de-Nazification. However, once the Cold War began and the Soviet Union became the enemy, it became more important to concentrate on the present rather than dwell on the past.

[STEED]

Hitler feared if he was taken by the Russians, Stalin would put him on display in a zoo.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by STEED

Hitler feared if he was taken by the Russians, Stalin would put him on display in a zoo.

Says the Kettle calling the pot black.

[Bilge_Rat]

If Hitler had been captured by the Russians, he would have met the same fate as Stalin's collaborators: extensive "interrogation" at the hand of the NKVD, a show trial were he would make a full confession of his crimes followed by a quick execution.

[Feuer Frei!]

The questions are endless. The answers are purely speculative, but fascinating to consider.

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

For example, if the full extent of Speer's complicity in the slave labour program had been exposed, he would have been sentenced to death, as he should have been.

Politically difficult to invoke the death penalty and then turn around and absorb the fruits of the V2 rocket program. Yes it was largely developed on slave labor, and yes many thousands died to make it a reality, (although this was more a result of manpower shortages, i.e. necessity - than design); nevertheless, the question of American culpability could be raised.

In other words, if the Allies had fully demonized Speer it could have caused guilt by association to become a legitimate question. Much better to adopt a relative morality and say Speer was really bad, (but what we're doing with his work is good), rather than claim Speer was evil, (but we intend to go ahead and profit off the deaths of slaves anyway).

If they had adopted the later approach, many might have begun wondering why 'the good guys' would stoop to associating themselves with anything so rooted in evil. At the very least it makes for bad public relations, so best to draw a fictitious line and call it bad but not evil.

[Bilge_Rat]

The truth is actually much simpler.

Goering convinced most of the defendants to follow his line of defence of denying responsibility for everything.

Speer took a different tack, accepting collective responsiblity, while fudging the details of his personal involvement. Not all the evidence against Speer was found and presented at Court. Speer was a sympathetic character and was able to portray himself as a naive young man who had been fooled by Hitler.

On the larger issue of "Allied culpability", I don't see any of it. The Germans started the war and tried to conquer all of Europe, the Germans murdered 6,000,000 jews, 4,000,000 Soviet POWs, etc., etc.

After the war, the Allies set up the tribunals to punish the guilty. There were 13 trials in all, against 200 defendants stretching all the way into 1949. How many Germans should they have locked up to not feel guilty? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?

By 1948, after taking down the worst dictator in modern history, the US was facing the second worst dictator in modern history. Stalin had staged coups in every country in eastern europe and was "purging" their government. Stalin had shipped off every German scientist he could get his hands on to the USSR and was working on an atomic bomb.

What should the US have done? should they have said: Oh no, we can't deal with any German scientist who worked for the Nazis! Better to remain pure even if it means the Communists will take over all of Europe!

[Platapus]

Anyone read "other losses" by James Bacque?

[Freiwillige]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

The truth is actually much simpler.

Goering convinced most of the defendants to follow his line of defence of denying responsibility for everything.

Speer took a different tack, accepting collective responsiblity, while fudging the details of his personal involvement. Not all the evidence against Speer was found and presented at Court. Speer was a sympathetic character and was able to portray himself as a naive young man who had been fooled by Hitler.

On the larger issue of "Allied culpability", I don't see any of it. The Germans started the war and tried to conquer all of Europe, the Germans murdered 6,000,000 jews, 4,000,000 Soviet POWs, etc., etc.

After the war, the Allies set up the tribunals to punish the guilty. There were 13 trials in all, against 200 defendants stretching all the way into 1949. How many Germans should they have locked up to not feel guilty? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?

By 1948, after taking down the worst dictator in modern history, the US was facing the second worst dictator in modern history. Stalin had staged coups in every country in eastern europe and was "purging" their government. Stalin had shipped off every German scientist he could get his hands on to the USSR and was working on an atomic bomb.

What should the US have done? should they have said: Oh no, we can't deal with any German scientist who worked for the Nazis! Better to remain pure even if it means the Communists will take over all of Europe!

Makes a good story doesn't it? Sells our culpability a bit easier? WWII is a little more complex than the age old "Hitler was gonna conquer the world!" speech.

World war two started because Germany and Russia conquered and divided Poland. Ribbentrop\Molotov pact. Poland was to cease to exist.

France and England in turn declared war on Germany but not Russia????

German's were shocked that they would go to war over Poland and rather abruptly threw plans for war in the west together. In fact their first plan was the same Schifflin plan of WWI!

It is now known that dum fuhrer wanted England as Allies not enemy's and had little interest west.

[Catfish]

I also wonder why England did not declare war to Russia as well, after both Russia and Germany invaded Poland, and split it up between them ?
As well Hitler did ot want to conquer the world, he was not even prepared well enough for Russia.


Hitler's plan was to gain "space in the east", and Russia was the one target, so he had to get his troops through Poland anyway.
Germany and Russia invaded/split up Poland (Ribbentrop\Molotov), with Stalin not expecting Germany to attack him.

So England and France declare war to Germany, because they have a treaty with Poland - but they only declare war to Germany - not Russia.

To not get the same trench situation in the west like in WW1, and to be forced to fight a two-front war, Hitler again uses the Schlieffen plan invading France, but this time he is victorious (at first, ahem).

Then England tries to strangle Germany again with a blockade, at the same time trying to invade Norway, to also strangle the iron ore resources going to Germany.
So Hitler tries to invade Norway before England does (needing Denmark for the march-through, while Sweden remains neutral), and succeeds while losing almost all destroyers and a few cruisers at Narvik.

Then Mussolini runs into problems and asks Hitler to help him in Greece and especially Crete garrisoned by England, and also in the rest of the mediterranean area. So the sh!t really hit the fan, but it was not "world domination" Hitler had in mind.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Bilge_Rat]

WWII is a little more complex than the age old "Hitler was gonna conquer the world!" speech.

lets see: Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, Russia...I seem to discern a pattern...

France and England in turn declared war on Germany but not Russia????

Yes, that would have been the wise thing to do, declare war on Germany AND the USSR and garantee that the Nazis would win the war!

There was also some talk about declaring war on the USSR after they invaded Finland, but thankfully wiser heads prevailed.