Libyan No-Fly Zone res. passed by UN

[Skybird]

One can ask if economic sanctions against a regime make sense if the leader of that regime is siad to have put 30 billion Euros, 140 tons of gold aside.


But what pisses me big time again is that when NATO finally said that it wants to enforce a naval blockade against weapon deliveries via ship, the germ,an government - apparently in great haste - immediately announced that it gave orders that the two German frigates and two German fast attack boats currently operating in the Med as part of the the standing NATO naval force there, are to return and are no longer under NATO command.

Great going, my dear Mrs Merkel.


I think this - at the latest - was it with the Berliner bigmouths' dream of getting Germany a permanent seat in the security council. If this gremium serves the idealistic purpose that it claims for itself, can be argued - but assessing it by the idealistic claims, Germany indeed has no business in the SC indeed.


I would like to see the other NATO countries simply ignoring Germany in the coming years, and NATO not picking up the new offer of Germany to send AWACS personell to Afghanistan instead. Let Berlin feel how Germany is being perceived.

Former foreign minister Joschka Fischer, a Green, who once let Rumsfeld run against a wall over the Iraq war when telling him that Rumsfeld did not convince him, has stripped foreign ministre Guido Westerwave and the German govenment of all feathers. There is little that unites me with Fischer, but like he was right back then to confront the Americans, he again is right today when attacking and sinking the German government.


That the German government still speaks of unity and how very much it is supporting it's allied "friends" and how very much the other nations understand the Germans (once again...), is simply shabby, and a lie tailored to deceive the German people in the main.


I would wish the the next election(s) to explode into the face of the CDU, unfortunately, the alternative of the SPD, the Greens or Die Linke forming the next government, is not any better. Maybe they would do better regarding this single issue now - but onlöy at the cost of messing up many others.

[Alex]

Some of us got pretty tired of that constant Kadhafi **** at TV that the country TRULY has nothing do to with. I found this artwork on a French forum today.



Uh, wait, it may not be funny depending on where you're from. But well, I don't care.

Poor General (and ship) getting his name tarnished in that crap.

[Bilge_Rat]

The Arabs are coming!

Mirage 2000s from Qatar on their way to Crete to participate in the operation:



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42209504...ld_news-europe

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

One can ask if economic sanctions against a regime make sense if the leader of that regime is siad to have put 30 billion Euros, 140 tons of gold aside.


But what pisses me big time again is that when NATO finally said that it wants to enforce a naval blockade against weapon deliveries via ship, the germ,an government - apparently in great haste - immediately announced that it gave orders that the two German frigates and two German fast attack boats currently operating in the Med as part of the the standing NATO naval force there, are to return and are no longer under NATO command.

Great going, my dear Mrs Merkel.


I think this - at the latest - was it with the Berliner bigmouths' dream of getting Germany a permanent seat in the security council. If this gremium serves the idealistic purpose that it claims for itself, can be argued - but assessing it by the idealistic claims, Germany indeed has no business in the SC indeed.


I would like to see the other NATO countries simply ignoring Germany in the coming years, and NATO not picking up the new offer of Germany to send AWACS personell to Afghanistan instead. Let Berlin feel how Germany is being perceived.

Former foreign minister Joschka Fischer, a Green, who once let Rumsfeld run against a wall over the Iraq war when telling him that Rumsfeld did not convince him, has stripped foreign ministre Guido Westerwave and the German govenment of all feathers. There is little that unites me with Fischer, but like he was right back then to confront the Americans, he again is right today when attacking and sinking the German government.


That the German government still speaks of unity and how very much it is supporting it's allied "friends" and how very much the other nations understand the Germans (once again...), is simply shabby, and a lie tailored to deceive the German people in the main.


I would wish the the next election(s) to explode into the face of the CDU, unfortunately, the alternative of the SPD, the Greens or Die Linke forming the next government, is not any better. Maybe they would do better regarding this single issue now - but onlöy at the cost of messing up many others.

I must admit I'd be feeling a tad annoyed if I were a German right at this moment.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I must admit I'd be feeling a tad annoyed if I were a German right at this moment.

That must be the world-famous British tendency for polite understatement.

[Freiwillige]

Germany, If England and France jumped off a bridge would you follow?

Like drugs, Just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it cool.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Germany, If England and France jumped off a bridge would you follow?

Like drugs, Just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it cool.

Germany did not follow the madness in 2003, and right it was. It allowed to get needlessly pulled into the Afghan swamp, however. But in 2011, I think it should have been one of the forerunners amongst Europeans to lead a more aggressive policy against Lybia, and much earlier then just one week ago, because it is in our best European interest that the rebels remain a chance to kill the Gaddafi regime and -clan. I again refer to the activities of Gazproim in Lybia, and it'S attempt to eliminate the European effort to become less depending on Russian gas via Eastern pipelines. (This is also the main reason why Putin is so upset about the airstrikes, he sees his Gazprom strategy - to freeze Europe in a potentially vulnerable and depending position that leaves it prone to blackmailing - in danger).

Both situations do not compare. But still they have something in common.

Schroeder back then, maybe different from Fischer, acted on behalf of calulations aimed at the appreciation by the wide public; Schroeder - different to Fischer - has not had any idealistic reasoning, he was and is the born opportunist.

Merkel today also aimed at the wide German public's opinion. But she probabaly miscalculated it - a majority on the street, in parliament, amongst parties, and maybe even inside her own coalition and party, is against this German policy.

Westerwelle takes nothing but fire over his incompetence over here. He is easily the biggest disaster of a foreign minister Germany has ever had, not just because of this story now, but a long display of naivety and incompetence and bigmouthed attitude nevertheless. He simply does not know his stuff, and has zero linkage to the realities in his ressort.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Germany did not follow the madness in 2003

Madness is only a point of view, many, many people saw it as necessary. And that is all I will say about that.

Considered that the world famous Texan habit of biting down hard on ones tongue.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Germany, If England and France jumped off a bridge would you follow?

Like drugs, Just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it cool.

It's very easy to fall back on the 19th century notion that one State should not interfere in the internal affairs of another to justify doing nothing and letting Khadafi massacre his own people.

But in the 21st century, where everyone is wired in to everyone else on earth and we all know in real time what is happening, you can't on the one hand encourage democratic reforms and aspirations and on the other, just stand by on the sidelines when the whole thing goes south and say "well, it's really none of our business" or "well, the replacement will probably be worse".

We have had many situations in the past, Irak 1991, Rwanda, Bosnia, Ethiopia, Sudan, where long afterwards, people have said that they should have done something.

Well the time is now and the place is Libya: Do you let Khadafi reconquer the whole of Libya and put to death ten of thousands of opponents or do you say, enough is enough, we are not going to stand by and let another tinpot dictator get away with murder.

Khadafi has got to go!

We'll worry about the replacement when he's gone.

[Freiwillige]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

It's very easy to fall back on the 19th century notion that one State should not interfere in the internal affairs of another to justify doing nothing and letting Khadafi massacre his own people.

But in the 21st century, where everyone is wired in to everyone else on earth and we all know in real time what is happening, you can't on the one hand encourage democratic reforms and aspirations and on the other, just stand by on the sidelines when the whole thing goes south and say "well, it's really none of our business" or "well, the replacement will probably be worse".

We have had many situations in the past, Irak 1991, Rwanda, Bosnia, Ethiopia, Sudan, where long afterwards, people have said that they should have done something.

Well the time is now and the place is Libya: Do you let Khadafi reconquer the whole of Libya and put to death ten of thousands of opponents or do you say, enough is enough, we are not going to stand by and let another tinpot dictator get away with murder.

Khadafi has got to go!

We'll worry about the replacement when he's gone.

The problem I have with this whole ordeal is it is not based on fact but on pure speculation and conjecture. Proof of mass slayings has not surfaced, In fact the opposite has. People are dying in this civil war but massive civilian targeting is not. I have followed this thing quite closely and it appears that the majority of death's are Rebels who are armed and in a civil war or Ghadaffi's forces. Everything else reaks of propaganda. And the same arguments for this conflict sound familiar to arguments for our recent conflicts.

Now if they actually showed proof of execution squads etc I might be more apt to agree with the current direction but the Facts point out differently, Ghadaffi's forces have actually shown great restraint even before our attack surounding cities and attacking rebel positions instead of indescrimanatly marching over the civilian population. I haven't even seen evidance that his air force attacked and bombed anybody but rebel positions.

There are people loyal to both sides and causes and that is what makes it a civil war and an insurrection. It isn't ghadaffi vs the people of Libya its half of Libya vs the other half.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

\
Well the time is now and the place is Libya: Do you let Khadafi reconquer the whole of Libya and put to death ten of thousands of opponents or do you say, enough is enough, we are not going to stand by and let another tinpot dictator get away with murder.

And how many people do you think the rebels will kill if they get into power?

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Platapus

And how many people do you think the rebels will kill if they get into power?

Less, the same or more than Khadafi. No one can predict the future.

However, we do have a pretty good idea of how many Khadafi will kill.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I must admit I'd be feeling a tad annoyed if I were a German right at this moment.

Annoyed? Actually it's nothing short of embarrassing.